Pajiba

So true. People ruin everything. Fuck.

"Lookit: I don't know shit about religion, though I do have an incredible amount of respect for religious folks (at least the tolerant ones). But here's what I think: It's hard enough for anyone to find love, you know? And though my knowledge of Christianity is limited, common sense and decency suggest that the last place you'd expect to be throwing up obstacles toward happiness is the goddamn church. Wouldn't you think? How can the Christian church create so many outcasts, when the religion was founded on the teachings of history's greatest outcast? It's a remarkable paradox, isn't it?"

I can't tell you how many times I've thought the exact same thing. So well-written and I'm looking forward to catching this movie.

Wonder how he'd react if his son had a limp wrist with a pulse.

i want to see that documentary.

I was raised as a catholic as i've said countless other times on this site, my parents on both sides, my grandparents on both sides, our family, extended family and when i was very young most of my/our school friends.
But i got REALLY lucky in that a)catholocism despite its many flaws manages, or in my case, manages to be one of the more open minded religions(at least the people teaching me where) b)The area i grew up in was made up of a collection of jews, muslims, catholics, protestants and who knows what else, so i was never exposed to anything resembling racial predjudice, and c) that my family where completely open and honest and welcoming to all comers.
Our maternal grandmother who had her oft times pitch perfect moments of Old Timey 'racism' (calling us 'niggery' when we got a really good tan) she was otherwise incredibly welcoming, and, refreshingly, more so to any than to homosexuals. My sister and i both are walking stereotypes, we're both a bit quirky and odd and have Fabulous Gay best friends, who we always had around at the house in the last few years of her life, when she was living with us after my grandfather died. She adored them, found them to be funny, witty, loveable and didnt have a problem with their sexual preferances.
the Uber Fundamentalist religious types are the ones that, i have to admit, scared me away from religion as a kid. i was already flirting with 'atheism' and the whole Goth teen satanist rebellion crap(i eventually settled on atheism...im fanciful...)but some of the stuff that would happen, the things you'd see on the news, the vicious, violent rants and attacks, shoved me away from religion like my ass was on fire.
I too have respect for people who can be religious in the world we live in, but at the same time be welcoming and accepting.
I cant imagine being so hateful, so bilious and vile about other people, while preaching a religion based on acceptance, love and care.
And if this shocked you in terms of treatment of homosexuals, if you have a kid, do not, ever watch(you probably have already) Jesus Camp.
it is, in a word, chilling.

Thank you for sharing some of your Dad's story, that is really powerful. I'm looking forward to checking out For the Bible Tells Me So. As someone who does know religion and comes from that, we've screwed that up so bad. I don't think that even describes our failure well enough.

Wow, this was a great review and I will definitely be adding this to my Netflix queue.
My husband and I thoroughly enjoy documentaries like this and the Jesus Camp one that was reviewed here a while back gave us a lot to talk about.

I also have to say... Long time lurker, first time poster... yay!!
Driven to post today because of the previous reference to Pump Up The Volume (I used to make beaded necklaces that said "talk hard", hah!) and then this Heathers quote, that for some reason I hear in my head all the time.
Pajiba, you was channeling me today!

There's a great internet icon that uses references to passages of Leviticus to point out how silly it is to focus on homosexuality as being so "objectionable". It goes something like this:
"Homosexuality is an abomination unto the Lord. Here are some equal abominations: Shrimp! Bunnies! Working on Saturday! Vegetable gardens!"
I love it.
It strikes me as hilarious that one of the major principles of Christianity is supposed to be forgiveness (and seems to me there's some well-known quote about judgment... a rule that might be golden, I don't know) and yet people think they are entitled to sit in judgment. Not that this is the first case of people picking and choosing what they want to pay attention to in religious doctrine, of course.

Thank you, Dustin, I know that must have been difficult. My feelings are exactly as you described in your final paragraph, and I often find myself repeating some of those very same words when defending my stance on gay marriage. I'm sure you know that the New York State Assembly passed a bill allowing gay marriage in New York last year (it didn't become law, although it was an important first step in the right direction). it was around that time when nearly every conversation I had with my co-workers would turn toward homosexuality, gay marriage, and the role of religion in forming our opinions. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I said, "It's hard enough to find someone who loves you and wants to spend the rest of your life with you, without having to worry about the legality of your relationship or how other people may feel about your private, personal feelings." There are far too many people in this world who think they have the right to impose their beliefs and so-called morals on total strangers. It really makes me sick.

A few years back I wrote a Master's thesis called "Making the Homoerotic Body: Southern Evangelical Religion and the Fight for Gay and Lesbian Rights". I argued that the specifically Southern evangelical backlash against the post-Stonewall movement stemmed from a tradition of frontierism that required control to be mapped onto one's physical body. Sound pretentious enough?

The point is, after reading this review, I feel one-upped by this movie.

i keep re-reading this and it makes me sad.
I've huge amounts of respect for you for coming through something like that.
the fact that kids still kill themselves over their sexuality, in this day and age, makes me sick.
Magnum, i ask this not to pick a fight or anything just out of curiosity, because you're clearly more...can i say, stable, than other Christians(which i assume you are?) do you have the same belief about the opinions of the type of people who make signs like the ones in the picture?
they have very strong opinions and their justifications for them, in the eyes of MANY, are not valid, nor make any sense, they cant back them up really...i know they base it on the bible but given how a lot of people feel about the bible, it negates the opinions of those who live so fiercely by it...i suppose i just asked myself in a circle...what i mean is, do you not think that the same kind of 'problem' you have can be applied to the likes of, whats it,Reverand Falwell?

Magnum:

Actually, for Christians (those who want to follow the express words of Christ and not a bunch of others who were around at the time), Christ left TWO rules:
1) Love your neighbor as you would love yourself
2) Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

All the rest is just filler. And there's nothing in those two rules that passes any judgement on gay people or others.

magnum
I recently finished reading A Year of Living Biblically by A.J. Jacobs, in which he did his best to try and live his life by following the gazillions of rules in the bible literally.

Guess what? He discovered that this is impossible, and that those who follow the bible and try to interpret it literally, ALL OF THEM have to pick and choose which rules they will follow and which they will not (see aforementioned note on impossibility of following all the rules).

So, I'm sorry, but no one, Christian, Jewish, or otherwise has to run with certain quotes from the bible that supposedly mean that GLBTs are less worthy of our love and respect and acceptance.

The bible may be the word of your god, but it was written by men and translated/rewritten a thousand times over, so I take anything it says with a whole mountain of salt.

magnum--
that passage in Cor. was written by Paul, who had several prejudices, and arguably, helped turn Christianity into a rule-based religious organization rather than a commune of spiritually-minded people, as Jesus's example taught. Now if you take the complete Bible as the inerrant word of God, then I guess you take every Paul wrote as sacred scripture. But it's necessary to look at who is saying what and why--we must question everything.

Granted, all that is coming from a former Christian, who nonetheless remains interested in theology and the impact religious organizations have on our lives. This review was powerful, so thank you, Dustin. And this sounds like a very interesting and moving documentary that I will check out the next chance I get.

I'm not a religious person at all. I abandoned Christianity at around the age of 14 once I began doing something called critical thinking, but I do believe an amen is appropriate right here. This movie is going on my list as a must see. Thanks for the review Dustin. You never disappoint.

tamatha, the other problem is that, not only was it written/translated by people, but that it's READ by people, too, and as such, we tend to latch on to those things that particularly catch our eye or resonate with us on some level. We can't objectively read the words without the influence of our past experiences/intellect/what have you any more than we can live without air, and so my reading of something and someone else's could be completely different; it's this same premise that applies to all the interpreters as well. So, filter that through edition after edition after edition, and God knows (ha!) what the original might have said. That's why I find it so amusing when people viciously argue about the "truth" in the bible, because . . . really? Prove it.

PaddyDog, i agree with you but just to clarify, i did say that the people who taught ME where more open and accepting, not all catholics, even as i wrote it i was thinking, didnt the pope do something stupid fairly recently that had to do with gay marriage or such like?
As for your priest, whoah!
That actually reminds, there's a book you all should read, that can be relatable here, i dont know how easy it'd be to find but its called 'Sucking Sherbery Lemons' and its the story of a young catholic boy living in Ireland(he's about fourteen at the start of the book) who's devoutly, DEVOUTLY religious, but as he grows older and decideds he wants to be a priest, comes to realise he's gay. it follows his life as he deals with growing up, his catholic teachers, the bullying he gets at school, follows him to the Seminary then onwards...i wont go into detail about where it goes from there for risk of spoiling it but i read it when i was ...gah, a wee child (and i mean nine, ten) and it gave me an insight into being afraid of your own true sexuality backc then.
But yeah, i dont usuallyplug stuff but the book is amazing, i believe it was published in '89 but it rings true today almost 20 years later. which is sad.

Michael Carson, Sucking Sherbet Lemons

My feelings and opinions on this matter are far larger than anything I could express in a comment thread. Besides, I've got shit to do, like laundry, so I'm being altruistic by keeping my mouth reasonably shut.

I was raised in the Christian church and continue to follow the teachings of Christ. I find that most of the people who condemn homosexuality with Scripture neglect to contextualize the words they quote (or misquote). For instance, the passage from Corintians quoted above is not the recorded words of Jesus Christ, but the words of the apostle Paul written in a letter to the early church in Corinth.

Personally, I'm inclined to follow Jesus' lead in matters such as these, and there are no recorded condemnations of homosexuality spoken by the man in the Gospels. He did say to take the big fucking(my profanity here, folks, not his) log out of your eye before you go trying to pick a splinter out of someone else's. And he said the one of the two greatest commandments from God is "Love your neighbor as yourself." Last time I checked, I don't stand in front of a mirror with a sign reading "God Hates Amanda" and tell myself I am going to hell.

I get so annoyed that people like those (Fred Phelps, Falwell, et.al.) mentioned in the film are the ones that have become the media face of Christianity.

Okay, I'm shutting up now to go sort dirty clothes.

Dustin, you broke my heart. Thanks for being so willing to put a little bit of your private pain out there.

Dustin,

Thanks for sharing about your dad. It brought on
some tears, for him and you and your family.

I was raised in the south, with Southern Baptist
parents, and there was a long stretch of my
teen years where I was intimately acquainted with
the taste of gunmetal. Not sure if it was the
lack of balls or a better purpose that kept me
from pulling the trigger.

That was a long time ago, and I'm hopeful at the
progress since, but also sad that it is still
going on.

My mother, who has made great strides accepting
me and my brother (yep, she won the gay child
jackpot!) still voted for Huckabee a few weeks
ago. She just doesn't see the disconnect between
loving her children and supporting someone who
would like to see us persecuted.

I just want to say that this post and this thread are the most interesting and compelling things I've read all week, and I am so, SO mad that I have a 4 o'clock lecture.

If anyone also wants a refreshing take on the WOMEN'S perspective of the Bible, read "The Red Tent". Great historical fiction dealing with actual women from the Bible and not too preachy.

lovin paddydog. that's what my bible taught me, that JESUS was the reason all those other laws dont apply to us anymore. like pork, and milk with meat, and lying in the same bed with your wife when she has her period.

2 rules he left us. and neither of them give any of us the right to judge anyone else. anyone who calls themselves a "christian" and then turns around and judges or hates or is violent towards anyone for any reason, i dont know what book they're reading but it's not the new testament.

GOD HATES GAYS!
GOD HATES GAYS!
GOD HATES GAYS!

Nice conversion tactic for introducing others to the love of Christ, right?

Q: Is homosexuality a sin?
A: Yes, so is oggling women, drunkenness, adultery, spousal abuse, arguing with your husband, and many, many other things.

Just once I would like to see a group of rednecks beat the crap out of eachother for getting drunk together. but I guess its just easier to point out specs in other people lives than to notice the huge 2X4s in their own.

Whatever, Matthew ends with the Great Commission, a charge to spread the love and hope we have in Christianity to all. How can this be accomplished through hatred, intolerance, and preaching that is just WRONG?

Agree or disagree with me, I am just tired of reading people's opinions over religious matters that clearly have no intention of either backing their opinions with something valid, nor making any sense.

To have any type of opinion of the Bible and its views, it is imperative for anyone to:

A) Believe in God
B) Believe that the Bible is a direct message from God

Well, see there's your problem. You believe that just because someone doesn't hold the same things as dogmatically true, that they have no valid argument.

You can't just say "The only way you can talk about the Bible is if you believe it is the word of God" because that not only hinders the discussion, but it ignores thousands of years of history that can be verified.

Plus, here is a question: if the Bible is the direct message known as the Word of God, how could it doesn't mention itself? True there is mention of a Word of God that existed before the universe began, and that God and the Word were the same. But there is nothing in the Bible that says that it itself is this ever-so-important Word of God. Nowhere in the Bible does it reference itself. The only way you could find it is if you have already shoehorned in the idea that Bible=Word of God.

That is circular reasoning. The only to prove the Bible is the Word of God is to already assume that when the Bible says "Word of God", it means the Bible.

You don't need to believe in God to have an opinion on the Bible. Hell, not believing in God IS an opinion of the Bible, since it says he exists. Plus, considering most of the "non-believers" here are actually quite familiar with Christian doctrine, they should have as much right to comment as anyone.

This isn't an attack on you personally or anything. It just seem incongruous to say that the only folks who can complain about the "Good Book" are those who believe it to be infallible in the first place (and therefore have no real reaosn to complain).

Yeah, OK: as the current resident of Arkansas and stiff-necked Christian commentor on this blog/site, I'd be willing to go on-record to say that there is no place in the Bible which says that it's right to kick some guy's @$$ because you found out he was gay -- in the exact same way that it's not found that we should perpetrate the same category of violence against those who steal or those who disobey their parents (or those, btw, who covet their neighbor's SUV, their neighbor's wife's plastic surgery, their neighbor's job, etc., and all the sins of those who go to church on Sunday).

The Bible is actually against any kind of vigilante violence, let alone the marauding insolence of inarticulate pickup-truck driving thugs who use the Bible to cover up their own sins while trying to use it to convict someone else. So in that respect, Dustin, I am with you and I apologize to you for the hatred your father received from some people claiming to be wearing the Jesus t-shirt. Jesus didn't die on a cross so that his followers could put other people in shackles. He came to proclaim good news to the poor, to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, and to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor. That's what He said, anyway, so we should at least give him the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not going to break into the riff on what the NT says about all sexual sin, or all sin, at this point. But I am going to break out into the riff that James Dobson and Fred Phelps are not really great represenatives of Jesus Christ on the matter of what God has said about, well, anything.

The news they preach isn't very good for anyone. Thank heavens it's not the actual Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Ok, so I got a little triggerhappy before I finished reading all the comments -- I guess I could have just said "I second AlabamaPink" and been done with it.

Suppose this: what if your own selective reading of Leviticus is wrong, and the Bible really does condemn homosexuality? Not homosexuals as people, but rather homosexual acts. Then our acceptance and encouragement of homosexual acts threatens the chance at eternal life for those who practice homosexuality. Christianity doesn't create outcasts...that's a terribly flawed interpretation of it. Jesus Himself warned us that few will find salvation. Few! Wonder why that is? It's because we have forever justified all kinds of behaviour counter to God's will because it pleases our will to do so. If eternal life is in the balance, and there's even the hint that engaging in homosexual acts would jeopardize it, why would we do it? Why would we tell our friends it's OK for them to do it? Christianity doesn't condone violence or discrimination against homosexuals...we're all God's children and deserve to be treated a such by one another. That includes helping each other to avoid the mistakes that can cost us eternal life.

I've been doing some Pajiba catch-up the last couple days. None too soon, I see. This was brilliant, just brilliant. Having grown up a Christian, I find this mutant strain of my beloved faith to be the true abomination.

(Pulls on waders, steps into the pool--the urge to be pedantic is too too great)

"Homosexuals as people" rather than acts most certainly were not condemned by the Bible, because the idea of homosexuality as a nature (i.e. homosexuals as a species) didn't exist until the late 19C, generally.

When going back thousands of years, it's best to think in terms of "acts" and so-called "sins", if we're trying to tease out the mentality of past cultures or enjoy a spot of free-form biblical exegesis.

(runs out, splashing and shaking off the wet.)

Dustin, thank you so much for sharing your personal story with us.

There's been a lot of theology discussed here the last couple of days, it's been really interesting, I gotta say. Here's my two cents:
*Love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18)
*Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs (Proverbs 10:12)
*Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8)

Then the kicker:
*The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Romans 13:8-10)

Unfortunately, it's pretty obvious that a good 3/4 Christians don't follow that rule. Hell, I don't, and I'm one of the most tolerant people I know. (On that note, I hate the word tolerant. It implies that people are doing something wrong that needs to be tolerated.)

It's so frustrating as one of the "Good Christians," to get lumped in with all the mouth-breathing, Bible-thumpers.

This is a really interesting discussion. And Dustin, that's awful. I'm sorry for you and your dad.

All of the things that so-called "Christians" do to persecute the gay community are just wrong. And I say this as a fairly conservative Christian. However, that doesn't mean I necessarily believe that homosexuality is pleasing to the God of the Bible. To resort to what I realize may be a very taboo word ("sin")- I'm not sure that homosexuality isn't a sin.

I struggle with this quite a bit, as one of my best friends from college - a female pre-seminary major - came out right after we graduated. She is one of the most solid Christians and one of the best people I've ever known, and I wanted to believe that her life choice was okay in the eyes of the God we both believed in. But I have never been able to fully believe that. Magnum is right, the Bible does say some fairly straightfoward things about homosexuality. And I'm committed to a fairly literal interpretation of the Bible, in context. You have to remember that with the teachings, and then death and resurrection of Christ, many of the trivial laws from the Old Testement (circumcision, anyone?) were done away with. I've not yet found, in my studies, anything to indicate that homosexuality became acceptable to God in the New Testement. Now, I'm not an expert, and as someone who has studied history, I understand the concerns about personal bias, but I have done my research, as I've said, for personal reasons. And this is what I've concluded, despite the fact that I was looking for something different.

I guess what I've come to, time and time again, is that it isn't my place to say. I can tell my friend, who I care about deeply, my opinions. But in the end, it isn't up to me at all. It is between her and God.

If homosexuality is a sin, I don't think it is any worse than any other sin. I call myself a Christian, yet I sin every day. I lie, I am selfish, I hurt other people, I ignore God, I ignore the needs of others, and yes, I have my own sexual sins. Jesus befriended some of the most hopeless sinners around - prostitutes and tax collectors (who routinely robbed the people they taxed, as it was the only way they could make a living). The only thing that I notice about this is that once they teamed up with Jesus, they didn't do that stuff anymore, or at least tried not to.

Anyway, I guess I am not sure what all these random thoughts mean, but I am trying to stress that, for a Christian, the issue is complicated. Thinking about issues like this make me realize how glad I am that there is a God (at least, I believe in a God) who has wisdom and justice and goodness and grace beyond anything I could ever hope to attain, and He is the one who makes these decisions. Not me, and not anyone else here, since all of us are limited and bound by earthly, biased, and inherently self-centered perspectives.

What is clear: it is not up to any man to judge another, and it is a wrong to persecute any group, even if you do believe them to be sinning. Surely to do so is a sin itself.

(Practicing Protestant and Preacher's Kid speaking):
I guess what gets me, and what KatyBelle gets at above, is that no one has yet to prove to me how, if homosexual acts are a terrible sin, they didn't make it into the Big 10. There is no "Thou Shalt Not" about homosexual acts. Nor is it ever even brought up, as was pointed out above, by Christ himself. So, if that is the case, can it be as important to salvation as so many Fred Phelps's in the world make it out to be? Money-lending is mentioned, greed is mentioned ad nauseum, but not gay sex - so why are we so obsessed with it?

I know folks like to throw the letters of Paul around, and if you believe that to be a Christian you must hold every word as written by the hand of God, then this argument will never reach you, but since there is much, much debate among professional theologians about which letters were written by "Paul" and which were probably written by followers/others, the more obscure your passage and farther from Christ n the Gospels it is, the weaker your argument is for condemning homosexuality (acts or individuals).

In short, I just don't think God cares that much about buttsex.

I hate no one, but that doesn't change the fact that 1 Cor. 6:9,10 clearly states that men lying with men will NOT inherit God's kingdom.


If you must know, I agree with Dustin on the Old Testament interpretation. I also believe Paul is a piece of shit, who ruined a perfectly good New Testament.


This is the man who wrote, "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed," in 1 Timothy 6:1. We're going to listen to this man as an authority on morality?

People like that are not Christians. Sorry, they aren't. And they are the reason I no longer attend church.

Jesus himself associated with the "scum" of society and condemed anyone who dared to pass judgement on them. I really wonder how many of these hatred-consumed bigots have actually read the Gospels. You know...the teachings of the man they claim to worship(?).

It's such a shame that the teachings of tolerance and love from the son of God himself have been lost in all the hatred. It seems these days "Christian" is now practically a synonmym for "anti-choice, intolerant, willfully ignorant hypocrite."

It's just sad.

Dustin, thanks for sharing such a personal and powerful story. And thanks for not lumping al us Christians into the same judgmental, morally manipulative boat.

There are two types of Christians: those who like to hurl the Bible at folks and those who like to actually read it. I'm am proud to be a member of the latter group.

Tammy: the letter to the Romans is hardly a contested letter, and it takes care of the question that seems to be getting asked in this thread pretty clearly.

But that said, let me say plainly that Christians who are worried about whether someone has done enough good deeds in this life, or if they have committed the fewest number of sins possible, have missed the point entirely.

It turns out that I am not the reason I will get to go to heaven. The reason I will get to go to heaven is that Christ died for sin, and this good news is the power to save with no distinction between what kind of sin or what family anyone belonged to.

Sorry to hijack the thread, Dustin.

Matthew, regarding your "Paul is a piece of shit" comment (as well as some other comments above): it is really frustrating to me that many of the Christians commenting on this site are making a concerted effort to convey their somewhat controversial ideas in a thoughtful, sensitive manner (have you seen any comments along the lines of "God hates fags" here?), and at the same time, there are so many other commenters who have no problem belittling or poking fun at Christian beliefs and being, quite frankly, really offensive to Christians. These are things we hold sacred and find important. Please return the kind of courtesy that I believe we have given. You're not speaking to a bunch of rabid crazies here.

Can I just add to this that homosexuality is not necessarily a "choice" either? Sinning is an act that is usually made freely...I have never met a gay person who has chosen to be attracted to the same sex, so how can they be derided for a "sin" in which they have no control? My best friend knew he was gay when he was five years old. He never woke up one morning thinking "My my I sure do love me some cock"...just as I never did as a straight woman. Our gut attraction to men was just there. His younger brother is also gay, and I knew it the moment I met him...when he was 9. I spent countless hours as a teenager after he came out consoling him when he would weep over being different, being judged, disappointing his parents, just wanting life to be easy...to want to sleep with girls. But he can't. He was born this way. And though I'm a cynical cynical bitch and have strayed from my Catholic upbringing, I do still believe in God and I believe that God made my friend just as he is...he made him the loving, caring, sweet, humorous man I know. And he made him gay.

I respect anyone's desire to take the Bible literally...I don't agree with it at all, but it's not my place to change your mind. I just though I'd put that out there :)

Llism: you rock, I'm glad someone else felt the need to address the whole "choice" issue :)

It always tickles my fancy that the debate about religion always boils down to "God is Love, YOU STUPID MOTHERFUCKER!"

Obviously, homosexuality is a sin. When I go to sleep at night, a 969 year old man with an extremely long beard, with my seven or eight wives, I live in constant fear of a world where my people could be overtaken and assaulted by these white-clad devils who engage frequently in anal intercourse. I call them Greeks or Romans, because I don't care to know the difference. So I call upon God, who speaks to me in the voice of Charlton Heston through a giant fah-LAAAAMing bush, to smite these heathens with plagues of locusts, or to make the sun go away, or to flood the ENTIRE flattened earth with a great rain where I will be safe on my enormous zoo-boat that I built with my sons. That will teach them. Even if he doesn't listen to me, I could always go live inside a whale. Jonah's got a couch to spare.

(Why does the Bible sound like the plot to a Final Fantasy game?)

"To have any type of opinion of the Bible and its views, it is imperative for anyone to:

A) Believe in God
B) Believe that the Bible is a direct message from God

"

Magnum, thanks for confirming my initial opinion of you. This is precisely the kind of thing I was taught to believe in my Evangelical days. Thing is, sometime around the end of Grad school I started reading scholarship on Jesus and the Bible. Knowing how the Bible was written and finally assembled and, especially, knowing how little can be known about any historical Jesus (my opinion, based on a number of people's research but perhaps mostly influenced by that of Robert M. Price, who is admittedly on the fringes of the "historical Jesus quest," is that there was no ONE Jesus but that the Jesus we read about in the Bible is an amalgam of various religious, political and revolutionary leaders active in the years and decades at either end of the Jewish war of 66-70 C.E.) I had to reject such a mindset.

When I was involved with Evangelicals my stepfather often asked how someone as intelligent and open minded as I seemed to be could believe something written in a book over a period of centuries centuries ago was divine truth. I didn't understand his concern then but I do now. You seem like a relatively intelligent person, able to put together words and sentences in a decipherable manner yet what you say means so little!

I, of course, am being deliberately insulting and callous and feel that I must apologize, but I will also go ahead and post my comment because, well, you've really made me angry. Your comments remind me of my religious past, a past I am incredibly and utterly ashamed of. You remind me of the pain I caused a number of fine, lovely and talented people simply with my words and my inacceptance of who they were. I have come to regret such a mindset and feel liberated from it. I hope someday you'll be able to say the same thing. Jesus would want you to.

I know I'm kind of late to this comment section but I feel compelled to add my two cents.

Dustin, your review was touching, well-written, and eloquent. Thank you for sharing such intimate details of your life.

To Magnum, and others who use the bible as proof of God and the proper way to "walk the walk," please remember that "The Good Book" was written by MEN not GOD. These men were not perfect, had their own agendas, and chose to cherry-pick which gospels they would use to justify their beliefs.

There is no proof that there is a God. It's a BELIEF. Everyone has the right to believe or not to believe, but no one has the right to impose their beliefs on others. Nor does anyone have the absolute knowledge that their personal beliefs are true. I can believe that the earth was created by purple unicorns, that doesn't mean I have the right to kick the ass of anyone who doesn't.

People do not choose homosexuality and it is not a sin. Most mammals exhibit homosexual or bi-sexual behavior, and we are simply highly evolved animals. (but then again, those who take the bible literally don't believe in evolution either)

About homosexuality being a choice: I don't admit to know what it is like to have homosexual desires. I haven't ever had any, and I don't understand how that feels or the process of discovering it, except from what I've discussed with my gay friends. However, regardless of whether people are born with gay tendencies, couldn't you say that about everything that someone could call a sin? Nymphomaniacs are born that way. Serial killers are arguably born with an empathy gene missing or have had experiences that make them the way they are. The rabid evangelical christians everyone is ranting about are arguably born or raised that way and "have no choice." Children of alcoholics are born with a susceptibility to alcoholism. I just don't see how this is relevant. If you believe homosexuality is a sin (which, as I've said, is an issue I struggle with, so I'm not telling you all that it is in deed a sin), then the fact that homosexuals are born with those tendencies doesn't really make a difference. If homosexuality is a sin, then it would be up to the individual to overcome their natural urges. Again, please understand that I'm not saying that it necessarily is a sin, I'm just saying I don't understand how the "homosexuals are born that way" is meant to be the end of the conversation.

Also, having gone from a religious undergraduate institution to a state graduate school where I was openly mocked for being religious, I have developed a thick skin. However, I would again request that the derogatory comments towards Christians and other people of faith stop. If you truly want to have a dialogue and want religous folks to hear you out, don't say such offensive things. It will chase them all away. Except me, because I'm unfortunately used to it.

Dustin, your story really touched my heart.

The thing that gets me is people who think there is only ONE bible. The fact is, the Jewish bible has different books, in different orders that the Catholic bible, and the Protestant bible. All three are different. Not to mention that the Jewish bible is in Hebrew and Aramaic, the Catholic in Greek and Latin, and the Protestant in German and English. Translation problems abound.

Add to that, interpretations of the English in the King James version. If you look at the definitions of words several hundred years ago, you realize how much has changed. Samuel Johnson's Dictionary is often used when interpreting the writings of America's forefathers, because the way words were used has changed so much. As an example, over 200 years ago, the word "let" meant "to prevent." So, if I let you borrow my horse, it meant that I did NOT give you my horse. Today it means the exact opposite. And that's just one simple word.

Amen, Dustin.

If you truly want to have a dialogue and want religous folks to hear you out, don't say such offensive things. It will chase them all away.

But thinkin', I don't think it works that way, not based on what I've seen of folk who press their religious beliefs forward about homosexuality being a sin. I want them to go on their way, believe what they want, eat what they want, fuck whom they want, vote how they want, proselytize (except leave me the fuck alone about it) . . . in short, live free without interference from me or anyone else. If they can accord the same rights to other people, then we can have the kind of discussion we had around the evolution issue a day or two ago. Purely academic, and no one can really change the end result, because nature doesn't care what we think.

If they can't accord those rights to everyone else, however, gays included, then there's not going to be a dialogue, because I don't have the time of day for them. There's no compromise or middle ground to be had on the question of whether gays should have the same rights and liberties as everyone else, privacy and intimacy included -- would we have a dialogue about whether blacks should be allowed to vote? Peaceful resolution is desirable, but that issue only changed when enough people got fed up and said "There are not two sides to this issue -- to deny these people their liberties is wrong and evil. End of story."

I'm sorry, but saying that a gay man's private choices with another consenting man is a "sin" is no different than saying that a black man and white woman choosing to marry is a sin. I'm not having a dialogue about that -- there can be no question in a civilized society that those consenting adults must have the right to engage in those behaviors.

Leanne, it's so tempting; but either Mrs. socalled or Paddy would turn me into a smoldering heap of former human.

I get the distinct impression those who battle homosexuality so hard are in fact self-loathing closet queers. Obviously not all of them are but if a supposed straight male spends that much time thinking about two men together, I think it goes much deeper than intolerance.

"claps enthusiastically",

I love all of you, this is why I'm here.

Dustin, beautifully written and heartfelt as I've come to expect.

Pajibans, the community here for all the snarky nastiness we know and love towards awful entertainment foisted upon us by the world you are some of the most open and honest posters on the internet.

Editors more applause for you, you have created a salon of great minds and hearts.

thank you.

socalled - I think some Christians single out homosexuality because of its relatively new status of social acceptability. Some people are uncomfortable with it, for personal reasons (no, not because they are all gay, but because it is something new and foreign to them). So instead of ignoring it or trying to become comfortable with the concept of it, they demonize it. It doesn't make sense to emphasize this sin over others and it doesn't seem, to me at least, to consistent with the teachings of the Bible.

Socalled:
I have never loved you more than I do right now.
Spot on comments and rebuttals.

Leanne/Scorzi:
No offense, but I have dibs, Alex The Odd is next in line, followed by AlabamaPink, Kolby and Julie or tt_Marie (I haven't tabulated the final numbers). So, get in line.

I haven't read any comments yet, and I know I will and will probably want to comment on something, but for now:

Dustin:

You have no idea how much I needed to hear something "real" today. I have had two fathers in my life. The first, my biological father, was a Christian, a respected leader of the community, a father of two biological children and two adopted, a husband, and a closeted gay man.

I was too young to know or even interpret the signs, but I remember his taking karate classes (reaching his brown belt; pretty impressive). I thought he was a super hero. In reality, he was literally fighting for a life he couldn't admit to living.

He contracted HIV, and died when I was 14.

I say all of this, partly because you have inspired me with your own personal account, and partly to point out the huge influence that religion and society had on his decision to deny the most basic part of himself: to whom he was attracted.

Thirteen years later, I constantly wonder if he had come out--or felt that he could--whether or not he would have been having unprotected sex with other men at rest stops. Maybe he would have found someone to live out his life with, and maybe he would still be a part of mine. I blame his inability to accept himself, but more so I blame the cultural conditions--conditions that have not changed very much; conditions that, in America, are heavily influenced by religion.

Someone pointed out in the stereotypes comment thread that gays in film and the entertainment industry are only allowed to be shallow caricatures; even now, Brokeback Mountain is hotly contested among the very people that should be practicing what they preach: objective love.

Yes, my father made a huge impact on my life--the very least of which was my staunch support of anyone's life choice, be it religious, sexual, political, or of another ilk.

So again, Dustin, thank you. I truly needed this today.

Sincerely

Kara "Boo" H.

Feeding of SCORZI's great post, there was not a word for homosexuality, and its original writing was effeminate'

I Corinthians 6:9: Translated for the King James Bible

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Since then it has been wrongly translated about 25 different ways, most of which weren't words in the original version. The fact we even use King James Bible underlines how imperfect man is, and how much history is merely a retelling by the dominant society (remember US history books as a kid?)

I am catholic, I don't practice by the gospel like I 'should,' but from a very early age decided my own relationship with God is the only way I would be able to accept it. The label Catholic itself to me is a paradox, I would be cast out by many hardliners for my stances against the decisions at the Council of Nicea (where they decided Jesus was a god after all...400 years after he died.)

But back then I think you needed a unified message to spread the word, and Man realized early this was a powerful tool to turn into a device of power and greed, because it draws clear lines.

I find a logical and spiritual problem in living strictly to the bible's word and interpretiation instead of the spirit of it's message. For one, we are talking about the Holy SPIRIT, so its just literally congruent that way; but mostly because we know that Man is woefully imperfect. The simple truth that we wrote it, and expect ourselves to be able to fully understand and comprehend the whole scope of God's meaning is a unintentional form of Heresy. Maybe I am coming off as untrustworthy of my religion's architects, but even the best intentions can lead to destruction, and we are destructive little buggers. Oh yah, and the whole translation issue. Amazing how a word can do so much, which I'll get to in a moment.

But its also my belief that these contradictions and unclarity are part of his plan, and there are special places for those who can find his message not because it allows one to feel included into the "good people" clique, but because the love for one another and connecting with others spiritually is the true meaning of life.

Sorry this got really long.

I would also like to thank you Dustin for sharing such a personal story, and as a half-assed writer applaud you for how it was tastefully intertwined and enhanced your critique rather than drawing away from it. I love this place because of its knowledge and appreciation of the written word (despite its first a movie website...Irony I also adore.)

Thanks again for sharing, I was quite moved.

Sean

I will preface my comment by saying that whilst I was raised Catholic, and undertook all my schooling at Christian schools, I do not have an extensive knowledge of the bible, so there is the possibility that I could be full of crap.

However, I have always thought: if it is well accepted that people used religious law and the bible to put across messages NOT directly from God back in the days it was written (eg, the whole not eating pork thing being made religious law so that the people at the time wouldn't eat it because it was generally diseased/unhygienic), then how the FUCK can the bible be interpreted literally and how the FUCK can people think that it is actually all the word of God? I believe in God and consider myself Christian, but the bible? Psalms were popular religious songs of the time, Proverbs were the pithy sayings popular in Israel at the time, there are glaring differences between the gospels when describing the same events... Don't these things show that the bible was written by man, not God? The bible itself tells us that mankind is inherently flawed, so shouldn't bible-followers then know that those sacred stories they worship were written by undeniably flawed humans? Doesn't the fact that there are FOUR DIFFERENT ACCOUNTS of Jesus' doings, four people telling different versions - at times conflicting and at times just with different emphasis/descriptions etc - of the same set of actions, doesn't that show that the bible is inherently authored? Why have four versions of the same thing if not to illustrate interpretive differences?

I am a lawyer, and as every lawyer knows (and everyone else probably knows this from Law & Order or CSI!!) eye-witness accounts are inherently unreliable - even if the witness is as solid as they come, all they can tell you is their interpretation. Throw in the added variable of time, and if the event in question happened a long time ago, it's very difficult to assign much weight to the testimony in court. Weren't some of the gospels written way after Jesus' death? Weren't they merely interpretations by men - holy men, but men nonetheless? Somebody help me out!!!

Wow, fantastic review! I saw this at the VA film festival a few months back and was very impressed-- I didn't know it was out on DVD now, but I'll be running to find a copy to show my GSA.

It wasn't obvious from your post, so thank you for clearing that up.

I don't believe in sin, so I have a difficult time understanding the hows & whys behind what other people may view as sinful.

Drake:

A response: It sounds like you went through a really rough time. It sounds like it was hard, and I'm glad you are long past any thoughts of suicide. I don't know what it is like to feel that way, and it is awful to think that people feel that hopeless. I am truly sorry that anyone, you included, has to go through dark times like that.

As for your last comment, I don't go around telling people I don't know that they are sinners. I don't really go around telling anyone they have to stop doing X or Y. I do sometimes explain my faith to people (if they are asking or if the topic comes up), and tell them what I believe and how I think that requires me to adjust my life.

However, one of my good friends (the one I referenced in my first comment above) has specifically asked me what my feelings are on the subject. Repeatedly. She's in seminary now, and gay. She struggles with this. Her entire denomination is in conflict over this issue. I told her the truth about my feelings - I'm not sure, and I don't know all the answers, but if you're reading the Bible, it does say certain things that indicate that homosexuality is wrong. Sure, take into consideration all the interpretation arguments, and think about whether the teachinigs of Jesus contradict that conclusion. Maybe they do. But I personally am not sure.

No, I'm not condemning anyone. But if someone asks my personal beliefs, what should I do, lie? I think about this issue a whole heck of a lot. I appreciate the perspectives and opinions offered here. And maybe I'll come to believe some day that homosexuality is totally fine with God and I was overlooking something or wasn't quite getting something before. I'm open to that. I really am. But I have to grapple with my own beliefs in my own heart and come to my own conclusions. Just like you have come to conclusions that seem to have steadied your soul and conscience, Drake.

None of us know all the answers.

Kolby:
You don't believe in sin? Does this mean you don't believe that people can do wrong?

Thinkin' and I seem to share the same battle -- love my gay friends, find it hard to believe they are bad people worth condemming, but I've also had thieves, liars, and flat out perverts as friends (in addition to sinning myself, obviously).

It's not my place to judge, it's not my job. I can only choose to allow people in my life who I can forgive, the rest have to go. I won't befriend a pedophile because that I can't see myself forgiving something like that or overlooking it. I think that's tolerance - not "putting up with something" but forgiving someone for something you don't necessarily believe in or maybe understand, but which also doesn't define them. My thief friend is a kind, happy person. My buddy the perv is generous and thoughful. My brother is a pathological liar, but extremely funny and driven. I take what I can from these people, forgive what I can't change and move on.

I am so sorry about what happened to your father, Dustin. Thank you so much for putting such a human face on this issue, you are incrediblly courageous for sharing that with us.

As a gay 17 year old attending an all male catholic private school, believe me, I've seen first hand the kind of hate people like this spew in the name of God. I once had one of the priests who taught religion say that asking why homosexuality exists is like asking why murder or cancer exists. In response, I tried to write an article defending students still in the closet from this sort of hatred, only to be told by the principal (who I had come out to, and who I thought of as a mentor)that the article was "tabloid trash", and that what the priest said wasn't really homophobic. When I tried to refuse changing the article, he made a vague threat against me concerning my two younger brothers, and proceeded to go behind my back and practically neuter it to an unrecognizable husk. I haven't spoken to him since.

I am out to a few people in my school, but at the same time, I am completely piss scared of coming out, just from some of the reactions I've seen from classmates. I remember when I was 13, when I started to realise I was gay, everyday I thought about killing myself. I was so depressed, and I hated myself so much because I was taught that I was, to use the word again, an abomanation. This is in fucking Quebec, which supposed to be the shining beacon of gay acceptance, So I can't even begin to comprehend how your father must havew felt, being in the closet that long in the bible belt. Dustin, I just want you to know that you're father was obviously a strong man for enduring that for so long.

I just want to say to any teens out there who are questioning their sexuality, please, for the love of God, do not let people like this tell you that you are any less of a person because you're capable of loving in a way they can't understand. There are going to be days where you will just break down and scream at God for making you the way you are, but one day you'll find someone you will want to spend the rest of your life with and who you love with all your heart, and you'll realise how much God loves you.

OOOH! I have a story to tell! It made me so so so angry, but none of my friends really get why, but I think my kindred Pajibans will!

I am Australian, and used to work at a Cafe called 'Gloria Jeans' that is part of a chain. I worked there for four years, all through university. In front of every cash register at every Gloria Jeans there is a charity box for our very own charity, Mercy Ministries. Every year we would have special fundraisers where one dollar from every coffee would go to the charity, we'd all wear T-shirts that say Mercy etc, any tips that we ever got went in the Mercy box (out of choice, we all thought it was a great charity) (umm, and for any Americans thinking the tip thing is crazy, in Australia we don't usually get tips, we get a higher hourly rate, so it wasn't an overly large amount).

Now, Mercy Ministries proclaims itself to be a charity that helps women in need. I'm a feminist, I thought this was wonderful. Their brochures say they offer a haven for victims of domestic violence, eating disorders, drugs etc. Myself and the other workers all encouraged customers to donate etc, we thought it was great.

Two weeks ago, I randomly found out what Mercy Ministries really is. Maybe I should have known, because of the name. Maybe I should have guessed because the owners of the Gloria Jeans chain are well-known to be members of the hardcore-rightwing-evangelical Christian church in Australia called Hillsong. Maybe I'm just naive. But I found out that Mercy MInistries is run by Hillsong people to further their own agenda (not even an exaggeration, it was started by the GJ's men and some of their Hillsong associates because they wanted to further their own beliefs in society). And what is their agenda? Anti-abortion and curing girls of drugs/eating disorders and LESBIANISM through bible study. CURING LESBIANISM WITH THE BIBLE. And I supported this charity. I was fucking livid. How dare anyone further their own religious beliefs by recruiting thousands of others to unknowingly further the cause too! How dare they not give me a choice about whether to participate or not.

A boy at the store I used to work at is gay, and he had proudly worn the T-shirt/encourage donations to what we all thought was a worthwhile charity. Imagine how he felt.

So, I was livid. Fucking livid. But what can you do? Big fat nothing. Except, when I first found out, and was especially angry, I undertook some mild civilian subterfuge. I printed out a typed note the same size as the charity box thing which said something along the lines of "Mercy Ministries is an anti-gay, anti-abortion charity that heals wayward, heathen women with the bible. No, seriously. Do you really want to donate?" and stuck it one the box when no one was looking. Needless to say, I went there the next day and it had disappeared!!

Also, many of you Americans might think I (and the rest of Gloria Jeans staff) were being ridiculously naive in not suspecting (with a name like 'Mercy Ministries') or with the owners connection to Hillsong. I just wanted to point out, to further contextualize, that Australia's religious right is SOOOO much more hidden than America's. I have never, ever witnessed any pro-lifers protests or propaganda; we don't have crazy priests/pastors/evangelical weirdos doing TV preachings (or if we do, it's on at 3am on wierdo community TV stations). Not that such attitudes don't exist here, but just nowhere near as openly as in the US. Just to give you some context as to how horrified I was to find out I'd been unknowingly supporting - and encouraging others to support - this 'charity'.

Everyone has their two cents to put in, and alot of it. It's my turn

I feel that one's beliefs should be based off of ones personal experiences. I have experienced religion from each end of the spectrum. Originally hailing from a "backwoods" town pop.1000 just outside of Cincinatti, to living in Toronto since the age of 11.

My mom, a believer in god has never shown a strict interest in church. Due to the fact of what a church did to my grandma when she was a child. My mom was the youngest of 5 children, born in Tampa, raised in Ohio. When my mom was just a baby, my gradma belonged to some church. Her and my grandpa didn't have much money, therefore unable to pay their weekly ties. Instead my grandma would knit clothing, and bake things for the bake sales as a form of compensation. Well this said church actually forced her out because of this!!!!! Absolutely disgusting in my eyes. Hence why my mom has never been into organized religion.

My father on the other hand, absolute opposite. He was raised a devout southern baptist. The works, until he became a drug addict in his twenties. Literally bouncing back and forth, from one extreme to the other. When I was 15, my father who was finally clean, with help from my step mom made and attempt to have a relationship with me. Which including me going to Ohio every summer to spend time with them.

So you have to understand that our relationship was rocky from the get go. So here I have my father trying to make up for lost time, but in a hardcore religious way. At this point he had turned pentacostle. I being the liberal city girl would taunt my father. Saying I was an atheist. Mainly to piss him off. But at this point I was jaded, self absorbed and couldn't believe that there was a god, because of all the shitty turmoils I had already dealt with at such a young age.

I would have to sit through some crazy, right winged sermons. I would have my dad in my ear constantly telling me that homosexuals are wrong. Any show like the Simpsons or Family guy were completely banned from viewing in his house. I would watch Buffy, and he would continually berrade me, saying that those demons were real. They weren't fictional don't ya know.

I would tell my dad, instead of trying to force me to believe. Instead of trying to constrict me with all his back water thoughts, if he left me alone, I would one day find my own faith on my own terms which I finally did.

By the time I was 20, my dad had chilled out some. Switch churches, was still as passionate, but more eloquent and forgiving. I had spent the entire summer with him, and his church "family". All the kids were my age, I attempted to conform with them. Mainly because there was nothing else to do. And I wanted to show my dad that I could respect him and his beliefs. This church was much better. The pastor really touched me. Kept me interested. He was never about persecuting people. And there was a real sense of community at this place.

I even went as far as to purchase a bible. It was metal cased, with a picture of a pop can top, and the words thirsty? written on the front. Talk about marketing huh? One night at the church, I felt something. My walls were broken down. I went to the front with everyone else. I got down on my knees. I had this rush of adrenaline, I started to cry. I don't know if it was the affect of everyones emotions because i'm really empathetic like that. Or it was me being touched by god. I like to think both.

After that the pressure came on. I think because of my epiphany, everyone assumed I would change my liberal way of thinking. That I would instantly conform to their thoughts and ways. That I would instantly start witnessing to people and forcing views down other peoples throats. It just didn't work like that.

I found god, and it's on me to have my own relationship with God. I don't need a book or some institution to tell what to say or think. I believe in God and thats what matters to me. I pray everynight. In my own way. And thats how I like it.

I had to come to terms with god in my own way. While I think the concept of organised religion, was initially formulated to bring people together. I think it's ghastly the way that it actually seperates people. Look at the many interpretations of the bible, sermons, sects, and literally all the religions around the world.

They were all formed from the same basic principals, but we've allowed it to be manipulated and interpreted based on region and the leaders own thoughts.

Why not break it all down and bring back to the basics? Make it raw and take away all the insidious fluff. Thats what i've done for myself, and will continue to do for my duration on this planet.

Now on to homosexuality. Some people above already mentioned about choice. And it's completely true. I have never met a gay person who ever chose to be Gay. Why would they put themselves through such persecution? Fact of the matter is, people are born gay. I firmly believe that. And if one was to argue that. I have one reply to it that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet..........

What do you say about gay animals? Where is the reasoning? How do you justify that, other than nature? And wasn't nature created by god?

If you don't believe me, well I have a gay cat. She is a he, but we nicknamed her Mama. We were told she was a she when we adopted her. We believed it for a year, she was a mother cat through and through. Even to the extent of mothering our hamsters through the night when they occassionally. Then we found out at her vet check up that, She was infact a he.

I could continue to go on for hours, but I plan to leave it at that......But does anyone who believes homosexuality is an abomination care to explain to me about the presence of Homosexual animals? Folks, i'm listening!

it is really frustrating to me that many of the Christians commenting on this site are making a concerted effort to convey their somewhat controversial ideas in a thoughtful, sensitive manner

I accord Paul the respect he deserves. This is a man who single-handedly hollowed out Jesus' message of love, acceptance and tolerance, to create a vessel for his philosophy of hate, discrimination and patriarchy. He unequivocally supported human slavery, for God's sakes!

I have as little respect for Paul as for the author of Mein Kampf.

To those of you in the "it is a sin" camp:

Your chief argument is that because the Bible says so, it must be adhered to. And that just because certain sins are more publicly accepted, that doesn't make them less sinful.

I have two issues with that argument. First, it forces an ad hominem defense, simply because the only person who can effectively argue that stand is someone who takes every part of the Bible literally, no exceptions. A person could not defend against such a statement without attacking the character of the person, and that isn't an appropriate rebuttal.

Second, you have to consider the "sins" that are so important to abstain from. That means you ask forgiveness for eating a cheeseburger or eating a shrimp or wearing polyester blends or myriads of other situations. If you defend yourself from an attacker, you are not following His Word. If you make too much money, you will fall short of the glory of God. And let us not forget, the biggies: if you as so much looked at a woman and said "she is hot", you are breaking the law. If you ever did yard work, or really anything more stressful that sit down on a Sunday, you need to start begging for mercy. Do you ask forgiveness for ALL of these instances and more? Or do you tend to 'prioritize' certain ones? Because killing a man is about the same as saying Goddamn in that book. Well, actually it is a bit lower on the scale, if you speak numerically. One could even condemn vegetarianism with the right Scriptures.

And there is plenty we find wrong in society that isn't stated as wrong in the Bible, and in fact are approved in said book. Such as the aforementioned slavery, rape (can't seem to find that commandment!), sex with children (nope, not that one either!), spousal abuse, the silencing of women, and more. Discrimination against people for even being born with a difference is a big one.

And there there is the idea of religious tolerance and the right for anyone to believe in anything they wished, and their right to say so without persecution. The Bible has quite a few no-nos for that idea.

Quite simply, and this is no attack on your beliefs, there is no real conflict except what you have forced upon yourselves. If you already pick and choose what parts you follow and which ones you quietly stuff away, then why not this one? If there is pain in your heart, that is because you put it there through your choice. As was said, there have been many who have had to deal with the issue, but they found their answers. I hope you do too.

Besides, you can always ask Him for forgiveness and understanding, right?

Now as far as hadenough's argument about incest and bestiality: Well, that is still the same problem. You are still picking and choosing, only now, you are assuming PEOPLE ARE TOO STUPID to see the difference between molesting a child or a dog (when they don't have the mental capacity to choose to have sex without coercion) and having sex with a consensual adult. Frankly, that is the kind of person I would deem a "mouth breather", and I don't appreciate being declared as such prematurely.

that I thought it would be time for a dose of objective truth.

Wow. I never thought I could hear such a bullshit statement in all my life. I really did try to be fair about this, but this was just...IGNORANT.

There was no "selective butchering of Leviticus", as you claim. Some folks think it is flat WRONG to persecute homosexuals. Nobody is butchering anything. Nobody is questioning it says that, only if it is still valid. Some folks say yes, others say no. That is it.

And to say that anything you have said here was "objective" in the least would be gut-busting hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

It must be "Quote Christian Slater Day" on Pajiba (for anyone who didn't pick up the "plastic forks" reference on the previous review).

Nice review. Given the subject matter, it would have been easy to give into fury I'm sure, but on the whole it was well handled. Having come to terms with a wife coming out, I can sympathise with the struggle to comprehend a close family member's "change".

On another note, all this quoting of Corinthians reminds me of a spiel by the noted Satanist Eddie Izzard on the Definite Article:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoBYYElyP4c

Saint Paul:
St. Pauls letter to the Corinthians " Chapter 1" Verses 1 to 53.
Dear Corinthians, as you can tell from my preamble, its gonna be quite a long letter. Here we go:
Dont do bad things, only do good things.
Always treat your neighbour like someone who lives near to you.
Never put a sock in a toaster.
Never put jam on a magnet.
Never throw your Granny in a bag.
Never suck all the juice out of a vampire.
Never lean over on Tuesday
[takes drag out of joint]
Lots of other things, but I gotta go and have a Mars bar now. Love, Paul (Saint).

...

They mustve been real f**ked off over in Corinth, dont you think? The postman going, "Come on, one of you Corinthians, gotta take this letter.

Oh, f**k off! Thats from old mourner St. Paul, isnt it? No I dont want it, I dont want it!

You gotta take it. Come on, I gotta have a signature for it.
...
Oh, give it here. What does it say? Dont do this, dont do that. Never put a sock in a toaster? Jam on a magnet, Ooh, hes lost his brain, aint he? Whose idea was it to be a pen-pal with St. Paul anyway? That f**king backfired, didnt it? Hes supposed to stop doing it at about 15, hes been doing it for years. Come on, Corinthians, come on, general meeting. Were gonna write a letter back to him, stop all this rubbish.

The Corinthians Letter Back to St. Paul - Chapter 1- Verses 1 to a million. More letters to follow. Tuesday 28th of something. Dear Paul (Saint, apparently), FUCK OFF!...

Been eavesdropping, just wanted to pop in and say thanks to (almost all) of the posters here for a most heartfelt, civil and fascinating discussion.

Of all places.

All I know is, we should be really, really careful about claiming to know how God thinks.

Thank you. Carry on.

Late to the party, but I wanted to throw in my two cents and show a bit of support for whatever it may be worth.

First, I wanted to extend my sympathy, respect, gratitude and admiration to Dustin. The courage and love with which you wrote this review is truly moving.

To be as succinct as possible (i.e. not terribly), I'm an optimistic agnostic who likes to think their may have been a Jesus Christ. A loving, free-thinking, man with brilliant ideas about how people can evolve (!) and grow as individuals.

And in regards to my own personal, spiritual explorations, the two great commandments Christ gave his followers (all that jazz about love and empathy) are the ones I believe in following. The rest is a historical/theological puzzle, and how you choose to study/interpret it says a lot more about you than it does any mysterious, Universal truth... but many people here have already covered that with much more eloquence.

Oh, and SoCalled, you have another ardent fan here. Just so you know. Maybe we should make T-shirts.

I find freedom of religion incredibly important. But the idea that people outside of a particular religion should be compelled to follow the rules of that religion and defend their lives to practitioners baffles me. The idea that religious belief should dictate public policy? That appalls me. Period.

I find the struggle of Christians to reconcile the Bible and other teachings with the concept of universal love HIGHLY ADMIRABLE, and I appreciate that it is difficult. I'm really impressed with the Pajiban Christians; you guys seem amazing. But I see no reason that non-Christians should be obligated to give a fuck.

Because as far as I'm concerned, the difference between a religion and a cult is a semantic one largely to do with size of membership. And if Hare Krishnas started to try to shoehorn their belief system into US law, you can be damn sure the public would be laughing, not allowing them to win the Republican primary in South Carolina.

I just want everyone posting here to know that if you are going to say that Leviticus is wrong about homosexuality, then it's wrong about incest and bestiality too. Becuase all three are condemned in the same chapter and verse.

hadenough, I'm sorry to say, that's just a dumbass argument, tolerance be damned. Everyone here -- except Pissboy, and maybe B-Slim on certain occasions -- would agree that murder is wrong, just like the bible says, along with theft, and many other things rejected by any civilized society. Incest is genetically and biologically untenable, as well as tending to encourage child sexual abuse within families, and bestiality is abuse of a helpless animal. On the bright side, you and Rick Santorum agree on something, so congratulations.

I'm assuming you don't eat shrimp, because it's condemned by Leviticus? I'm assuming you have sold all your belongings and live among the poor, in the example of Jesus? You have multiple wives, like the kings of the Old Testament? Or are you picking and choosing the parts of the bible you want to follow?

thinkin', peace be upon you. Not to hector, but a century ago, many, many well-meaning, good-hearted people of this country believed that miscegenation was a sin -- they learned it from their parent, and it seemed skeevy to them because of traditional mores against it. People who fought and died in wars to preserve our country believed it was wrong.

Now we know it was wrong to call such people "sinners." Heterosexuality may not be a choice, but having sex with someone of another ethnicity is certainly voluntary (unless it's Gina Torres, then I plead temporary insanity).

Regardless of whether it's a choice, we certainly know it's immmoral to hold someone inferior because he or she has sex with someone from another race. 100 years from now, people are going to be saying the same thing about the insistence that intra-gender relationships are a "sin." Please, please don't end up on the bad end of that argument.

Paddy: We are joined in spirit.

Since Fred (Fucking) Phelps has been brought up a lot in this thread, has anyone ever seen this site?

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

It's pretty funny, goes with the idea that if we're going to follow Leviticus verbatim, then seafood is an abomination before God as well. It's worth a few laughs, especially considering how aggressive the thread has been getting.

ps. Dustin, I want to thank you again for sharing such a personal story.

Regarding the high suicide rate of GLBT teens: does anyone know if there is any sort of organization to help GLBT kids who are kicked out by their families find foster homes with accepting families? At my last job, I was involved with a GLBT employee network (I'm female, married, and mostly straight) but no such network exists at my current job. Friends at my last job said there was a network in the New York (or maybe New Jersey) area that helped these kids out. I'm in Texas. Draw your own conclusions.

Anyway, if anyone knows of something like this, please email me at: g n o e l l e @ c h a r t e r . n e t .

Comment threads like this are why I keep coming back here. I mean, if I truly admitted my favourite movies and TV shows, my pajiba membership card would be well and truly shredded, however it's nice to see there are more people, or more specifically Christians, who take Paul's letters with a grain (or more) of salt and actually share similar ideas that most Christians I know struggle with. I went to an evangelical christian school where we were told that God does not love homosexuals, and we were dragged out of class with no warning to hear from Answers in Genesis why we shouldn't believe in science. Actually, in an ironic twist, I think I was dragged out of grade 10 science...anyway...my point is, it's a federal offense, or whatever (I'm Australian, give me a break) to read other people's mail without permission, right? So why the fuck do we read letters written for specific times in a specific place by one man with his own agenda, and take it as absolute law that this is what God wants?

And I'd like to thank whoever it was that pointed out that Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, at least nothing recorded in the Gospels. I've never thought about that before and I like that as an argument the next time I get stuck talking to fundamental hard liners.

Dustin, your story is heartbreaking. I can only offer my deepest respect for your sharing it.

socalled do you mean the Seven Jew Bankers at the Center of the Earth?

"Hell, I don't, and I'm one of the most tolerant people I know." -KatyBelle

Hee! I love this, although I expect it is unintentional hilarity.

"In short, I just don't think God cares that much about buttsex." -Tammy

AMEN, sister woman.

"I put "Christian" in quotes because people like the late Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, Pat Robertson and everybody's favorite nut case, Fred Phelps, are not Christians but fascists who wrap themselves in the cross to legitimize their hatred for democracy and freedom of choice" --Armando

I love the rare moments when you pop up in the comment threads. You are always extremely articulate, even when being pissy. Love it.

"It always tickles my fancy that the debate about religion always boils down to "God is Love, YOU STUPID MOTHERFUCKER!" --insertclevernamehere

There is nothing in the world better than the above quote. Nothing.

"I feel like this is the 3rd wave of the civil rights movement." --Amanda47

...and here we are.

"It's about changing our culture so that people of prominence in religious circles no longer have a forum to condemn homosexuals. There will always be bigots, there will always be racists, there will always be sexists; but religion should not be a reason to defend such attitudes." --David

SO well said, David. And thank you for your reality.

"Very well said David. I agree with you completely."

Posted by: Pudenda at February 21, 2008 6:48 PM

Dammit Pudenda, you got there first.

"And if someone comes back with - "its Pajiba...blah blah bitchy people...blah blah get out of here if you don't like it...," I hate you in advance." --tt_marie

I was totally waiting for that one...

"Yes, you should be unafraid to proclaim the message of God if you are a Christian. However, don't ever overestimate your own intelligence or your own worth." --thinkin'

Heavens yes.

"Paddy: We are joined in spirit." --socalled

You guys are SO having an internet affair. (I secretly love it.)

Aw- thanks, SoCalled! And yes, I do love me some Firefly/Serenity. Way to make me smile!

By the by, Pajibans: is it just me, or do Hadenough's posts read a lot like a certain Fox pundit mentioned in todays' Love? The similarities in logic and syntax are mighty intriguing/hilarious.

Just sayin' is all...

Whew, haven't felt so many emotions in such a brief span of time in quite a while. I'm all a-tizzy!

Thanks Dustin, Drake, David, Jeremy and others up there for sharing your stories--wishing you all the best, and I can only hope (and do my best) to see the world become a more accepting and loving place.

Also, it's lovely to see lots of Christians disproving stereotypes. I have a few Catholic relatives who are of the bigoted, holier-than-thou variety, so it's great to meet some of the cool and rational kind, 'Bama, Joy, thinkin', KatyBelle and others. Lots o' love, folks.

Lively discussion all around...carry on!

Just to throw another line in the deep end, would it surprise anyone to know that the 'true' Bible doesn't "hate gays"? I doubt anyone's opinion will be changed by this, but I'd like to do my part for tolerance.

The word that we translate today from the original Greek bible (that is, the bible that was compiled several hundred years /after/ Jesus) to mean 'homosexual' is the word 'malakos'. Before the 13th century, 'malakos' was translated as people who masturbate. Then, around about the 13th century the priests realised that there are more people who masturbate than there are homosexuals, and so changed the translation and thus were able to rule over more people's lives. It's essentially the same principal ("This sort of person will not inherit the kingdom of God"), just a change to the supposed sin. If you're going to believe in the bible, please do some proper research about it, because more often than not the people whose knowledge of the bible you are trusting are just talking about their own opinions.

It's sad to see anyone who has an irrational fear and hate of something as intrisically good as love. Perhaps just as sad is when people who are nice, intelligent and generally 'normal' people talk in quite a level and sane manner about how someone different to them is 'wrong', 'unnatural' and an 'abomination'.

Just my two cents.

boo! Wow, you're right. That sounds pretty hilarious, and kinda dumb. What I was getting at is that I live in Alberta, the Texas of Canada, where we've had the same (conservative) political party in power for about 40 years. I'm really lucky that my immediate group of friends is very liberal and open-minded, but a good chunk of people around here aren't.

We're also one of the only provinces not to have already legalized same-sex marriage. :S

Armando: **thank you**
I'm also a former Christian, well versed in all the apologetics and so forth, and can now most definitely vouch for the the-Bible-is-a-convoluted-mess-of-bad-fiction viewpoint. I usually try to be polite, but when certain religious types request quiet reverance and awe for their beliefs, I like to remind them of a little doctrine of theirs about a place called Hell. Sorry, but your deity, and 30,000 different denominations devoted to it, have given us exactly zero clarity on this and other issues. If you want to use an archaic text to give you contemporary guidance, then there is much, much more wrong with divorce than with being gay.

As it is, there is *nothing* wrong with being gay and thankfully it seems like more and more people are realizing that.

thinkin': At first I was a little surprised that you disagreed with me so passionately. Now I realize that you see Jesus as a warm, fuzzy kind of teddy bear with no hard edges. Evidently you haven't read the New Testament any better than most other people here read Leviticus. It is absolutely true that Jesus' message was of love and forgiveness. But it was forgiveness that presupposed repentence. (Yes, I'm a sinner. If I get to heaven it will truly be a miracle. But, all things are possible with God, right?) There are too many posts here to count, but probably 90% of them twist the message of the Bible into knots to justify homosexuality. Jesus will forgive anyone anything if they are sorry and repent. But persistently saying that HE is wrong (He being God) only perpetuates the disaster of Genesis and does not constitute repentence.

In a previous post I said that Jesus told his desciples that few would be saved. He said that. He raked the Pharasees and Sadducees over the coals regularly because of their intellectual arrogance (and incompetence), He tore up the temple because of its misuse. He promised hell to anyone who failed to follow him. And finally, he said he'd spit you out of his mouth for being lukewarm in faith. That's no teddy bear. That's a God who knows what He wants and isn't shy about issuing warnings to those who would choose their own way over His. Re-read the Bible, my friend. You've missed the point.

We need to submit to His will. We must decrease; He must increase. The more we struggle to justify the satisfaction of our own desires which are counter to his will, the further from Him that we get. A fatal error.

I was lukewarm in my faith until I saw the real Jesus in the New Testament. The real Jesus, the tough, demanding one, is one I can follow. Because His love and forgiveness are worth having; worth suffering for. Ours is a truly evil generation, no different from the one that Jesus encountered. We want things soft and easy...we want things our way. Which is the wrong way.

Having been raised a Jehovah's Witness, then going through a period where I was part of an evangelical nondenominational church, I have seen two very far ends of Christianity. For the record, neither the JW's or my other church (cough, cult) could assuage the feelings I had that something is wrong with some of the teachings modern day Christians put forward (that, and I've basically always been an atheist, hey I've actually read THE ENTIRE BIBLE, and it just doesn't make me want to do anything except go to sleep). People are people. History has shown that Christianity has direct ties with other religions and that it hasn't been around forever. I mean, even the Hebrews haven't been around forever (Hebrews=Jews, nowadays). But anyways, I live in South Mississippi. The evangelical cult I went to for three months tried to convince my gay best friend that it was okay to be gay, and then they tried to turn him straight by making it seem like it was something that happened to him that made him gay and that he had a choice to "be straight." Um. Yeah. Strike one. Next, they tried to convince him and my other friend to stop talking to me because I asked too many questions and didn't put them into my "God-will-answer-your-question-someday-file. Strike two. Then, when my gay best friend wasn't at church one day (this is a small church, only like maybe 50-60 people in the congregation) that was the day they decided to MOCK gay people (and liberals, but that's neither here nor there) by speaking in an infuriating lisp-tinged voice and walking hips swaying with a limp wrist and calling them pedophiles. They did this because he wasn't there and they wanted to "cure" him and by mocking him he wouldn't be "cured."Yep. I WALKED THE FUCK OUT. I hate stereotypes. I hate stupidity. But I don't hate people. I love my best friend, and not because he is or isn't gay, but because he is a good person. I've had sex with way more people than him, but he gets 90 times the flak I get. It is just a fear of something that has been put out there to be afraid of, for what I think, are bullshit reasons. Thank god I'm an atheist. Or don't thank him, thank me.

Thank you, Dustin.

"'"I put "Christian" in quotes because people like the late Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, Pat Robertson and everybody's favorite nut case, Fred Phelps, are not Christians but fascists who wrap themselves in the cross to legitimize their hatred for democracy and freedom of choice" --Armando

I love the rare moments when you pop up in the comment threads. You are always extremely articulate, even when being pissy. Love it.
""

Aww geeze, boo. You're making me blush. :-)

Whew, this was a good long comment section. Pretty much everything that I would write about has already been covered by the responses to Magnum, so the only aside I have to offer is that all of this makes me think of what I remember from Foucault's theories on sexuality, and how all of us heteros out here are really missing the point, which is, not to be bored or boxed into with a specific little label. I also love the idea of sexuality as more of a continuum than a hetero/homo dichotomy. Judging from some of the same-sex celebrity picks in the who-would-you-do diversions, I'm going to guess thats maybe closer to the mark if we let ourselves admit it.

I know I'm super late, but I've been reading these comments on and off all night, and while I usually try not to comment on serious threads (mostly because I'm inarticulate and generally ignorant), I feel like I really need to say something here, even if only for myself.

Dear Hadenough,

Seriously? I know Vermillion already said it better than I ever could, and certainly doesn't need back up from someone as inarticulate as me, but the bible doesn't treat homosexuality, incest, and bestiality in the same way. Sure, there's that laundry list of abominations in Leviticus, which also includes the ever popular (and delicious) shrimp scampi reference. But I'm pretty sure there are a few references to incest as just dandy (Isaac in Genesis, and Lot and his daughters in...some other book). And bestiality has that whole consent issue going for it, in addition to the fact that it's just fucking gross. Just because they're in the same list of no-nos doesn't mean they are the same thing.
Although, good job with the "I've hadenough!" at the end. I think referencing your own name only makes your case stronger, for shiz.

And special shout-outs to Thinkin' and a few others; rarely have I heard articulate arguments made coming from the Christian side; that's mostly my deliberate ignorance for keeping the circle of people I would talk to about these kinds of issues to those of the very, very liberal persuasion, and also strenuously avoiding bringing up topics such as this with certain retarded family members whose best argument would be something akin to "I hate dem queers!" Its nice to be reminded that those who have different points of view can disagree in a respectful, articulate, and legitimate way. I know its sort of sad that I automatically think of people with different ideas as the opposite of that, but hey, I'm a stupid asshole sometimes.

And to Brett, while I certainly disagree with your views, I very much respect the way in which you voice them. Well said. And that goes for almost everyone else who's said something in this comment section; that's why I come to Pajiba.

Oh my gosh, socalled, I know there's a line as long as my arm to be your Internet Girlfriend, but will you be my Internet Kindly Avuncular Figure Full of Wise Advice and Crustyness? Because that? Was awesome.

Excellent review, Dustin. Sharing such personal information is difficult but it fit within the context of this review.

I'm sorry your father, you, and your siblings had to go through such trauma (especially your father). I only hope you all came through this stronger and that your father is free to be the man he truly is and not ashamed of it. He deserves that much, at the very least.

I always felt a kinship with you and, hell, we're all one big happy, if at times, slightly dysfunctional family here in Pajibaland anyway, right? Therefore, since you shared your story I will share mine.

My oldest brother and his wife are "Shiite" Christians (thanks, Jim Gaffigan), my other brother is gay, my sister is married to Archie Bunker's black counterpart (he hates everyone) and my father hates homosexuals -although he has broken quite a few of the commandments he still considers himself a good upstanding Christian.

Needless to say, we are a fun group to be with.

In all seriousness though, we do just fine for who we are. My mother, sister, and I embrace my brother because we love him. His partner is a good person and makes him happy and that's all that we ever wanted for him. My father and oldest brother know he is gay but refuse to acknowledge it - except for the time my brother brought his slightly more flamboyant friend (not even his boyfriend, just friend) to Thanksgiving dinner one year; that was ugly - but sadly for them ignorance is truly bliss. Ignorance being the operative word here.

After dropping off my brother at his apartment after a joint trip together, my oldest brother met my brother's partner when he asked to use the bathroom. When my brother walked the oldest back to his car the oldest replied "Well, you know where you're going when you die, right?" (of course, this meant he would burn in hell for all eternity). My brother without missing a beat said "Yes, I know where I am going," because both my gay brother and I both know that God doesn't give a damn who you love - only man does.

I believe in God and Jesus but I don't call myself a Christian because I don't want to group myself with those who have no capacity for love, compassion, or understanding of their fellow man as God and Jesus would want, no, expect us to have. So I go on my merry way just trying my best to be a decent human being (which presents its own challenges).

Ironically, it was a required religion class on divorce, remarriage, and homosexuality at the Catholic university I attended that taught me how Leviticus was twisted (either by accident or design) from its original Hebrew translation by Christian leaders that made homosexuality an "abomination". God bless that Catholic university because I don't believe that was the message they wanted to send me away with. Oh, well.

Anyway, I hope that if you read this you realize your experience is not all that unusual and that this type of shit goes on everywhere. As long as man continues to do God's job by passing judgement on everyone who is different I fear change will be a long time coming. All we can hope for is that God has a special place reserved for those who would use his Word against all others.

Dear Everyone Who Is Not A Christian,
I'm truly, deeply sorry for everything that we've done. I'm even sorrier that we've signed God's name to it without His permission. Please forgive us, we don't always know what we're doing.

Your dad had a paper route! HAHA!!!

Oh, but there is, socalled. I grew up in the same sort of environment, and I can relate all too well. The same people who have issues with homosexuals also have issue with miscegenation.

Kris, no difference, sweet darling; nothing but an acknowledgment of all of your rights to pair and split and pair and split like the young 'uns do. Do what you do; there is a flame of liberty left in this nation, and a cranky old guard prepared to do something horrible to those who would trample you (and, by extention, me).

Smithy, you know how I feel about freshman girls drinking whiskey in my proximate whereabouts. (Hint: I feel really good about that. Not sure if Leviticus addressed 40-year-old misanthropes poisoning bright young college girls with cynical meanderings, but (a) I'm all about smothering myself in the "moistening of the clover," so there's that, and (b) I'm pretty sure those Old Testament kings were fine with de-flowering their flocks of 13-year-old wives. That bible, that's some high-falutin' moralizing!)

You made me cry...I never cry!

You're my hero of the day, D! ;)

Although, good job with the "I've hadenough!" at the end. I think referencing your own name only makes your case stronger, for shiz. - Marra

Best of the night. Thank you.

KatyBelle, I'm sure there's a joke here about Alberta and oil and buttsex . . . or cowboys and riding in leather chaps . . . really, it is the gayest province. Alberta is totes a butch name. Stelmach can suck it.

Been reading pajiba for a long time. First comment:

Thank you.

JJ McClay - I boycot Gloria Jeans, they're a chain that's taking money from the local cafes aaaaaaaaaaannnddd their affiliation with Hillsong and what they do.

Dustin - You're a Hero. My Idea of "Heaven" is Oscar Wilde playing pool against Andy Warhol while Virgina Wolfe keeps score.

Lauren, tell me about it. Seriously. Cross your fingers for me during the election in a couple weeks. NDP!!!!

Pudenda - I am sorry but you think because you are biology major that you know anything. I also have a science degree and history degrees. So stop with the uniformed diatribe about, "GOD doesn't exist," non-sense. It just shows how you are the opposite side of the same coin as the intolerant bible thumpers. IN FACT, your THEORY of evolution is a religion as well. Considering the circumstantial evidence coupled with the physical laws of the universe, which all work against the theory of evolution, so please before you start spouting your one-sided believe system, why don't you look at both sides of the argument. You are even worse the far-right because you are as much of a hypocrite as they are, while claiming to be enlightened. (Here is hint for a place to start, the second law of Thermodynamics and then the concept of Fine Tunning.)

Dustin - Thanks for sharing this personal story with us, man. We Chritians, who really understand the message of the Lord, know that hatred never is the Way. It is Forgiveness, Forgiveness, and Forgiveness. Love the Sinner but hate the sin. The reason I write this is because while GOD is Love, HE is also Justice. This is why forgiveness, patience, and respect are important in how people relate to each other. Not trying to get onto my soap-box, but all sin will be punished. Every violation of his commandments is punishable by death, but because HE loves us so much and wants a relationship with us. HE says forgive all who ask. Bigotry is never the way.

I disagree with the above statement concerning the acceptance of homosexuality by the religious groups. It has always been the case to condone the sexual practises of homosexuals by the three peoples of the book. While I do think it will be accepted secularly, it will not be accepted by the major religions. As for the example of miscegenation, is only a recent phenomenon in the history of Western Society. It was not a problem for thousands of years but only came about with the growth of the American slave industry in the 16th-19th centuries.

We do realize, I hope, that the bible can't condemn homosexuality because the concept of homosexuality (as in, people being born gay, rather then a bunch of straight people fooling around with their best buds) is only about 100 years old. So, there's no corresponding word in ancient Greek or Hebrew.

Leviticus . . . well, I've read stuff that claims this has been mistranslated too, but in any case, we can't really pick and choose Leviticus. If I'm going to hell for this passage, then so are you for wearing cotton/polyester blends, shaving, talking back to your parents, eating shrimp, pork, and cheeseburgers. . . etc.

Next, when Paul starts going on his list of people who aren't going to get into heaven, he uses one word that means "soft" or "weak" (seriously, soft. The same word is used earlier in the bible to describe cloth) and another word that NO ONE KNOWS WHAT IT REALLY MEANS. Why? Cause we only have a few other instances of it being used in ancient literature!!

Then, we have Paul's rant in Romans. Which only works if you assume that being gay has nothing to do with your innate nature, and is something you, and your mother, choose. Which you better have some good evidence for as the entire AMA, who have degrees and research and shit, disagrees with you.

So, how about doing some research and actually taking a stand? This whole "love the sinner" bullshit is just that. Bullshit. It gives people a way to judge the person while still being P.C. I want Fred Phelps to get hit by a mac truck, but at least he has some balls in that matter. (Not that I want all of you to go his route.) If you're going to condemn homosexuals, then where's the same passive aggressive condemnation for lying politicians, the war in Iraq and divorce?

Fucking hypocrites.

To thinkin'-Why do you need a book to tell you how you should feel? If you have such a wonderful friend whom you enjoy spending time with, why can't your feelings tell you "You know what? I don't care that she's gay because she's my friend and I love her." I find it odd that Christians (and I was raised in the church) have this inherent NEED for the Bible to tell them exactly what to think and how to feel. Stop using it as a crutch!

To hadenough-If homosexuality was just "recently" accepted, you might want to go back and tell that to the ancient Greeks and Romans when the men in the military brought male concubines with them on their journeys so they wouldn't get, ah, "lonely". Check out the paintings and artifacts found from that area in any major museum.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion/belief. No one has the right to try and force those opinions/beliefs upon others. I, for one, am tired of certain Christians in this country trying to force their beliefs upon everyone else. Not just about homosexuality, but about everything. Abortion, stem cell research, the teaching of evolution, etc. What business is it of theirs to tell other people with differing beliefs how to live? If they believe those things are sins, that's fine. But don't tell me I have to conform to your beliefs.

The thing is, many Christians aren't like that. They respect that others may not believe what they believe, and they don't try and force their beliefs on others. However, the ones who want to force everyone to conform to their beliefs are the ones who make all the noise. They're the only ones you ever hear about, the only ones you see in the news. They say that they are trying to make this a better world, that if everyone did what they say, that everything would be better. They only want what's best for us and our children. More and more people hear that and start to believe it. Meanwhile, those Christians who don't agree say nothing. They don't protest the things the Fundamentalists say, they don't do anything to stop what the Fundamentalists are doing, they just sit quietly by and watch it happen. Maybe they are afraid that the Fundamentalists will turn on them if they speak out, or maybe its just not in their nature to do so. But if they don't speak up, along with the non-Christians who disagree with the Fundamentalists, then the Fundamentalists will win.

Now replace the word Christian with the word Muslim in the above paragraphs. Trying to force your beliefs upon others is wrong, no matter what those beliefs are (so long as you are not hurting anyone else in your practice of those beliefs). The very things that so many people condemn about Islam are the same things that can be said of Fundamentalist Christianity. While it may be that Islam has taken things to more of an extreme than Fundamentalist Christianity, the basic behaviors are still the same, and may eventually lead to the same results.

In all of this unimaginably vast universe, there is only one Earth, the birthplace and home of Humanity. If we do not learn to treat each other with respect, regardless of our differing beliefs, then the Earth will also certainly be Humanity's grave.

hadenough: So I understand that you've written me off as well, said that I serve a teddy bear God, and evidently view me as being lukewarm in my faith. Nothing could be further from the truth. I personally believe that God hates sin, and through grace, I've been able to rid my life of some of it (definately not all if it; I still have a long way to go). Not by my own strength, but through strength that God has given me. Most of the changes I've seen in myself involve a shedding of my self-centeredness and pride. I appreciate that, because it makes me humble, it makes me more compassionate, and it makes me care more about others. Life is a lot more fufillng and a lot sweeter when you cease to view yourself as the center of all things.

You mention the Pharasees and Sadducees - yes, these were the individuals that Jesus gave the most trouble. I think part of the reason that was the case was because they thought they had everything figured out, and were to stubborn and proud to even recognize Jesus or his message when they saw it. Yet they claimed to be holy men. I think it was the self-righteousness, the idea that they knew differently than what God Himself, in Jesus, was telling them, that ticked God off. The idea that it is difficult for a rich man to get to heaven? I think that springs from the notion that a rich man is more likely to have delusions of his own importance and won't take kindly to criticism, even God's.

As for most other sinners, Jeuss' kindnesses toward them did not presuppose repentance. Those that Jesus encountered were still drowning in thier sin; it was only when they recognized Jesus and saw the truth that they repented. He approached them as wretched sinners.

There is nobody except for Jesus who was without sin. David, a "man after God's own heart", who was deeply loved by God, had a man killed so that he could steal his wife. Those are huge sins. Yet God loved him and emphasized the goodness of David's passion towards his faith and towards God.

The Bible tells us that it isn't works of righteousness that will get us into heaven. It is faith. I've never had a "salvation" moment, where I've all of a sudden been turned around. It has been a gradual journey for me, and I find myself offering up more and more of my life to God. Yes, we must sacrifice our own desires for God. But the closer you are to God, the more you understand his teachings, and the more you are able to look at the world with fresh eyes, the more those desires drop away from you. This is the natural consequence of knowing God. It doesn't come first. When I say to approach someone with patience and love and understanding, I do not mean that you have to squelch your beliefs or hide the light of Christ under some bushel, or tell them that you think there isn't anything wrong with the way they are living. I simply mean that your approach to speaking with people about these matters should stem from understanding, patience, and humility.

I feel like you may see yourself as some suffering saint, hadenough. But ask yourself: what purpose is my suffering serving? You may think: "people dislike me for what I say - so therefore I must be doing a good job being a Christian, because we aren't supposed to have an easy time in this world. We aren't supposed to fit in." However, Christians are supposed to be different in a good way - more gentle and loving and kind, and yes, making progress in thier own struggles against sin. Leading a better, though never blameless, life. This behavior will accomplish more for God than a book full of preachy-ness.

Hadenough, you are not succeeding at winning anyone over to Christ, if that is your goal when you say things like what you've said here. If it isn't your goal, I'd ask what your goal is. Ask yourself that. I unfortunately think the only thing you're accomplishing is feeding your own ego and reinforcing your own delusions of martyrdom - because I don't believe that any glory is brought to God by harsh, clumsy, and condemning words.

I hardly think you're burning with God's righteous anger. I think it is your own - you even talk about how you are personally angry and frustrated. I'll ask again - what are you trying to accomplish?

Bloody hell!!

This discussion (and the review which prompted it) is fantastic.
I've been reading for what seems like hours, and have been alternately moved, enraged, uplifted, and forced to think (and that hurts! But I hear it gets easier with practice, so I will keep reading the comments...)

Dustin I have to see that film. And thank you so much for sharing with us. Right about then was when the 'being moved' part started.

"Love the sinner, hate the sin" is just about the most condescending phrase that's emerged from the struggle that the LGBT community has had with the religious community. It's a disingenuous offer of friendship, a wolf in sheep's clothing, bigotry veiled in a gossamer of love. Homosexuality is not a choice, despite what many would espouse. It's not an urge or a habit, it's part of my composition and part of what makes people like me human beings: we are attracted to people of the same sex, just as heterosexuals are attracted to people of the opposite sex. To ask us not to act on those feelings is to ask us to deny what makes us human. I don't need conditional support or love from anyone who would dare to claim that my feelings, attractions, what-have-you are are any less than their's because mine are a product of "sin"...

No one demands that anyone like homosexuals; we ultimately all form our own opinions on the issue. But enough with "loving the sinner". Calling anyone a sinner based on who they are is bigotry, no matter how it's presented.

David,

I understand what you're saying. However, think about this statement: "'Love the sinner, hate the sin' is just about the most condescending phrase that's emerged from the struggle that the LGBT community has had with the religious community. It's a disingenuous offer of friendship, a wolf in sheep's clothing, bigotry veiled in a gossamer of love."

You are basically placing an impenetrable wall between people with certain beliefs and gays. I don't understand why I have to agree with everything a person does in order to love them or befriend them. If you don't believe what I believe, then my beliefs are of no consequence to you. I would guess that you disagree strongly with some of the things I believe in, and some of the principles to which I adhere. However, I wouldn't ever assume that you couldn't befriend or even love me. There are many traits and beliefs and practices that define a person. If someone doesn't agree with the practice of gay sex themselves, I don't understand why that would prohibit them from loving a gay individual. That's not condescending, its simply taking a stance that says while I may not agree with you, you are a person worthy of my love and respect.

If someone is a staunch vegitarian, to the point where they think it is morally wrong to eat meat (and I do know people that believe this), can they not still love someone who disagrees and eats a bacon cheeseburger twice a day? Can they not have a warm and caring relationship despite of thier differences? One that may even be enhanced because they can learn from one another? Even if you don't ever intend on accepting the point of view of the other, differing opinions can cause you to affirm why you believe the things you believe. Discourse and friendship between people who believe different things can never be a bad thing.

"You are basically placing an impenetrable wall between people with certain beliefs and gays. I don't understand why I have to agree with everything a person does in order to love them or befriend them. If you don't believe what I believe, then my beliefs are of no consequence to you. I would guess that you disagree strongly with some of the things I believe in, and some of the principles to which I adhere. However, I wouldn't ever assume that you couldn't befriend or even love me. There are many traits and beliefs and practices that define a person. If someone doesn't agree with the practice of gay sex themselves, I don't understand why that would prohibit them from loving a gay individual. That's not condescending, its simply taking a stance that says while I may not agree with you, you are a person worthy of my love and respect. "

Thinkin', the thing is that there's a difference between "belief" and nature. As a straight man who probably gets a 2 on the Kinsey continuum (I assume, since I've never taken the test. I'm straight. Prefer women, but can accept and atest to a man's attractiveness without much sexual attraction) I have little choice between being with a woman and being alone. That's not really a choice, really. The same is true for homosexuals. There's no choice about it. This is who they are. Choosing to love and befriend them but not accept that part of who they are is very different than remaining close friends with an Evangelical Christian while yourself being an atheist. (Because, see, faith IS a choice.)

To use another analogy: I am hispanic. Born in Puerto Rico to Cuban parents. Someone who professes to be my friend but "does not agree" with my Puertorican/Cuban identity, really does not deserve my friendship as there is no way to "disagree" with a person's identity. To have problems with an individual's fundamental nature is to be a bigot. It is the same with members of the GBLT community.

I got a shout-out! I win! All it took was saying "Buttsex!"

That said, I thought I might post this frickin' sweet passage from godhatesshrimp.com (or, truly, a friend of theirs, who is in seminary). It says it so much better than I can, and pretty much sums up my viewpoint and that of my denomination (United Church of Christ is a pretty sweet organization). Check it:
1) Paul is not God.

2) When Paul is citing this list of sins he is doing it to make the point that the Church in Corinth is free of these sins, which were listed in the Torah, because of their faith in Jesus. Paul's letter to the Romans spells out in excruciating detail how the law no longer applies to Christians because they have died to sin and been risen in Jesus. In other words, these categories were good enough for our Hebrew forebears as they went, but as Jesus says to the tricky scribes, Moses gave those laws (specifically speaking of divorce) because the people's hearts were hard. Jesus clearly demands a higher mode of ethical conduct; in repeated instruction and parables he contrasts what people were taught with what he says. Therefore, Paul's personal feelings about what kind of people will inherit the kingdom of God, taken as a blanket condemnation of certain behaviors, is not only contrary to Paul's own teachings on the matter of justification, but deeply opposed to the spirit and teaching of Christ.

3) What Paul is giving a list of, in both verses that you cite, are examples of depraved conduct, as he sees it. His point is that when people turn their backs on God, they are prone to act in all kinds of sick ways; his point is not to list things that Christians should mark in their notebooks as being the "newly revised Levitical code". Paul is saying, "You guys used to do all kinds of crazy shit, but now that you have Jesus, you've got your act together." I would say that there is a big difference between lustful, furtive couplings and a committed, healthy relationship. The notion of a committed, healthy homosexual relationship was utterly foreign to early Jews and Christians, as was the notion of abolition, racial intermarriage, antiseptics, and all sorts of other things that we take for granted today.

4) Jesus never mentions homosexuality in the Gospels, not once. If it was so important that we had to clamp down on it anywhere and everywhere it rears its terrible head, don't you think he would have at least, you know, brought it up? There is on the other hand, a specific condemnation of divorce in the Gospels, spoken by Jesus, and yet I don't hear Focus on the Family saying anything about divorce.

I guess I don't buy the idea that a person is defined by thier sexuality. I certainly don't consider my sexuality to define me. It affects me, and I suppose it adds to "me" as a whole, but it isn't "me".

In fact, I believe my faith is the one of the most definitive things about me, as it has the greatest impact on how I live my life and view things. But yet you say faith is a choice and therefore can't define me.

In my mind, who you sleep with is is not the same as who you are. And I see race and sexuality as not being the same thing. I'm sorry, I just see many differences there. You can abstain from having sexual relations with someone of the same sex. I'm not disregarding the inevitable comments that will result - I'm not even arguing here that you should - assume I'm entirely neutral on that issue - I'm just saying it is possible. I'm saying it is a physical impossibility to - you simply cannot - change your race. It is different.

Look, I struggle with my sexuality. I'm straight, but my beliefs dictate that I refrain from sexual relationships unless I intend to live my life out with someone and start a family with them. Do I ever want to have sex now, in my single years? Of course. I'm not a robot. But I refrain from doing so. I also hope to be married some day. And I highly doubt that I'll stop noticing that certain men are atractive or engaging or charismatic. But will I be able refrain from engaging in a sexual relationship with them? Yes. If I determine that I want to. All of this involves essentially denying my sexual nature.

I'm not telling gay individuals to do the same, but I'm simply saying it is something that one can abstain from if they decided to.

I'm white. I can't all of a sudden try really hard to become asian and accomplish that. It isn't the same. You may think it is stupid or pointless for me to approach my sexuality the way I do, but that doesn't negate the fact that I am able to live the way I have decided to live.

I suppose this may require some thought about what it means to be "gay" - but if it simply means being attracted to and wanting to engage in sexual relationships with the same sex (which I'm guessing would pretty much be the basic dictionary definition), I feel like my arguments above are valid. Please don't say "well, are you saying gays should end up alone?" I'm not arguing anything like that here. I'm not touching on that subject at all. This whole comment has nothing to do with what gays should or shouldn't do.

thinkin'

I think it's just best if we agree to disagree.

But as a final comment from my end, I find it sort of sad that you assume I view my sexuality in a different way than you view yours. I've been with the same boy for 2 years, and I fucking love the shit out of him :). Aside from some young, stupid, mistakes when I first exploded out of the closet, I also don't have sex outside of a committed relationship. Did I want to? Sure. But ultimately it's irrelevant what I think about premarital sex, because I'm not allowed to get married. My love isn't legally recognized in my state the ways your's will be when you meet the right boy and decide you love the fucking shit out of him.

So maybe we're not so different after all: we both have strongly held beliefs, we both live based on those beliefs, and we both like boys.

Man, David, I am feeling so much love for you right now.

David, I never said or assumed you were promiscuous. I don't know you, so I have no reason to believe that.

G40, I said there is no PROOF that God exists, I didn't say definitively that he/she doesn't. And if you actually READ my comment, I clearly stated that I UNDERSTAND & RESPECT THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN GOD AND/OR RELIGION. Did you choose to just overlook those statements? By no means do I believe or did I state that I know everything or even that my beliefs are correct or absolute. The majority of the comments over the past 24 hours from people of faith insinuate that the bible is fact, and use that to justify their ambiguity or distain of homosexuality. My point was to illustrate that A) There is no proof that God exists and that the bible speaks the truth, B) There are many other religions both past and present that do not follow Christian doctrine which should be equally respected, and C) I respect a persons right to believe, however I don't think the same liberty is granted to those who DON'T believe. If there were, we wouldn't be having this debate in the first place. People should not be discriminated against, belittled, or physically assaulted because they don't live a life that conforms to someone else's beliefs. Have you ever heard of an encounter or incident in which groups of homosexuals attack, beat, or kill a Christian because of their difference of opinion? Go ahead, think about it.....I can wait. Um, didn't think so. Religions in general, not just Christianity, have been used for centuries to justify hate, bigotry, violence, and murder. And please, do not twist that statement to say that I'm accusing all religious people of behaving that way.

Also, in case you didn't notice, nearly half of my comment consisted of quotes from other posters with whom I agreed. I don't know if you missed the whole quotation mark and italicized thing going on, but that means that I'm repeating someone else's words. So please, do not judge me, put words in my mouth, or call me a hypocrite. You do not know me, and you obviously didn't read what I had to say or any of my previous comments. It's funny that you, the "Christian," immediately jump to judgment and name-calling. Isn't it a fundamental Christian belief to "judge not lest ye be judged?" Not once in my comment did I resort to name-calling or judgment, I stated my opinion and I do believe that is allowed.

The difference between my post and yours is that I begin by saying, "As a Biology major, I'm a person who views life, human existence, and sexual orientation in scientific terms..." Get that? I'm a person who views things this way; I did not say that everyone should. Yet you, after your condescending retort to my beliefs, address Dustin and go on to state what "The Lord" is, means, blah, blah, blah. That, my friend, is hypocrisy. Why do you speak of YOUR GOD as if he is the only deity that is believed in or worshipped? YOU are the one who speaks in absolutes as if you know definitively what is true and what is untrue. It's your Christian egocentricity that I find obnoxious and condescending. Why are you unable to say "my beliefs" or "my God?" What is it that makes your God trump all others? I gave a statement clearly saying what I BELIEVE, you respond by calling me a hypocrite and one-sided, and then shove YOUR BELIEFS DOWN OUR THROATS AS IF YOUR GOD AND YOUR RELIGION IS LAW, PROVEN AND ABSOLUTE!

So please, G40, remember that your faith is not universal, it is not fair to push it or it's doctrines upon anyone else, and you should actually READ what someone else is saying before you are so quick to judge. If you're looking for hypocrisy, I suggest you start your search in the closest mirror.

Yeah, Jax, I think it's just me and you on this one. Don't know if you noticed, there are a hell of a lot of comments in this section, but G40 believes that because I believe in science, evolution, and homosexual animals, I'm a one-sided hypocrite...go figure. Great Dogma quotes, by the way. I love the movie and seriously enjoy the way it bluntly points out the major flaws with modern organized religion in an extremely humorous way. I think we'd get along well in the real world!
Jax and Pu-Pu 4EVAH!!! :-)

Did God write the Bible with a laptop or a ball point pen. I don't get it? Oh, or was it Jesus that wrote it?
I don't know about you guys, but I don't need clergy men to tell me what is right or wrong.
Love is Love!

"it's a BOOK. That's all it is" - scorzi, that's your opinion. I personally believe it to be inspired by God himself, so that would make it more than just a book to me. The fact that I believe this does not mean I've shut off my brain. I've very actively listened to and considered what everyone has said over the last day and a half, much to my work productivity level's detriment, and will continue to do so long after this these comments have been relegated to the Pajiba archieves. In fact, I think I'm using my brain much more actively than you are when you spout out simplistic, arrogant, closed-minded statements like your last one.

The ironic thing is that your last statement sounded more like hadenough's than any of mine have. You two seem to be cut from the same mold.

Pudenda You are my new hero!!!!!

It used to be this guy......
http://www.stfu.se/stfu.swf

And yes, I as well think we'd get along great in the "real world". I like your style!

tt_marie I think that the Homosexual animal point has just as much bearing as any other argurment or point that has been brought up in this debate.

Animals eat thier babies sometimes.
Some animals do this to exert their dominance in large scale groups. Others do it to increase their reproductive rate. Rats commonly due it to control population, or to rid the wounded sick or weak.

About 200 woman a year in the US kill their children, about 3 out of 5 children are killed by their parents each day. Sad yes, true yes. Does the name Andrea Yates ring a bell?

Animals lick thier own buttholes. Monkeys eat bugs off of thier friends
How do you propose animals clean themselves? Do you not wipe your ass after you take a shit? I mean, if my cat walked into the shower turned it on and sprayed her own ass with the shower head. Not only would I be amazed, but I would be astounded at her propensity to evolve so quickly, and adopt human traits even though she doesn't have an opposable thumb and walks on all fours.

Dogs hump thier owners' legs.
So your tellin' me that you've never been so horny, that you've just jumped on your mate and wanted to do the dirty? What if the dogs owner is the only other mammal it has contact with? What if the owner puts off some appealing pheromones?(not sure if animals pick up on that, but for the arguments sake, I will assume so. If i'm wrong please correct me!)

Certain male animals will fight to the death over a female.
Have you ever been to a a residence on any college campus? The majority of these kids do is back stab and deviate to have their way with each other. Are you implying that no human has never killed each other for a man or a woman?

I could seriously go on and on and on if you like. I think it's fairly arrogant to think that because animals do all these things that me or anyone who believes in evolutions shouldn't think that it's wise "look down the evolutionary chain" for an answer to homosexuality. I'm merely proposing that if animals, who act upon instict are homosexual, than is it not plausible that it's an act of nature?

Furthermore I think it's daft to assume that because we humans have evolved that we don't share the same insticts as animals. We are infact mammals. Just another species in the Kingdom Animalia

Dude, Jax, come on man. I think that's the point. Human beings have the same instincts as animals, but have found ways to overcome some of these. For example, we invented toilet paper and shampoo to clean our butts and hair. Because somewhere along the way, we realized tongue baths just weren't cutting it. Also, we have law enforcement to deal with people who kill over a romantic interest or to deal with women who kill their babies. We realize (unlike animals) that these two things are wrong, so we have made it harder for people to commit these types of acts without consequence. Saying shitty things about someone for stealing your boyfriend isn't the same as stabbing them in the chest. Its...more civilized. As for dogs humping owners' legs - - well, we invented porn and vibrators so we don't have to hump the leg of the first mammal we see.
Now again, I am not saying being homosexual is one of these natural instincts that should be fought. I'm just saying that there are quite a few of these "natural instincts" that we should be glad we've overcome. For that reason, I don't see the point of this argument.

To reiterate: the fact that something is natural, or an act of nature, or an instinct doesn't justify it (i.e., the killing of a rival over a shared romantic interest), so I think its wisest to come up with other pro-gay arguments.

ps - Jax - "about 3 out of 5 children are killed by their parents each day"?

HOLY SHIT. That statistic is abso-frakkin-lutely mind-blowing. So every 3 out of five kids I see today will be dead by tonight? At thier own parents' hands????!!!??? Then again tomorrow? The human race is in serious jeopardy! Someone do something QUICK! We don't have many days left.

I guess I have a general frustration with categorizing homosexuality as whether or not it's a sin and arguing back and forth on this premise.

A sin is when you DO something wrong, it's an action. Homosexuality is something you ARE. Like if you are straight, that's just your orientation, which by itself is not sinful. It's what you DO with that orientation which is right or wrong. You can molest a child - WRONG. Or be in a healthy monogamous relationship with someone you love -RIGHT -- but your straightness in these equations is just a pre-determined fact, and not considered when looking at your morality. But as a gay person, my orientation is always part of the equation and even if I'm in a healthy monogamous relationship it's still for some reason equals WRONG. Suddenly my orientation falls under the category of choice when straight peoples' orientations do not.

Like think about it - did you wake up one day and say I'm going to be straight. I'm going to choose to like people of the opposite sex and date them. It's not a conscious thing, it's a natural impulse one way or the other. I started to notice the feelings I got when I looked at this girl I had a crush on in my history class in like the 6th grade. But just like you I didn't make a conscious decision to have a first crush, I just noticed them.

So do you see the danger in telling someone they are sinful just for who they inherently ARE and not for what they DO?

That's why people kill themselves over this and that's why the church's approach to homosexuality is so twisted. If you are gay you cannot win, you're birthright already promises that you're going to hell unless you live a life of celibacy and ask forgiveness every day for who you find attractive and the natural feelings of love that can be created through that.

What if the Bible said that having green eyes is a sin and you were born with green eyes? Those green eyes would cause you to be shunned by your family and beat up on a regular basis. This is the same idea.

The premise that sexual orientation is a choice, and therefore can be constituted as sinful or not sinful based on your decision either way, is kind of missing the whole point in my opinion.

Beautifully worded.

And yeah. People like that are the reason I haven't come out just yet.

To all the Paul haters who like to believe that he destroyed Christianity, why then would God send angels to release him from imprisonment on several occasions? He obviously had God's approval, but not yours.

Unless it's gay love then there's hellfire and god doesn't love you anymore.

tt Forgive me for I quoted the statistic wrong, it is actually BETWEEN 3 and 5 children are killed by their parents each day.

The fact of the matter is that we haven't overcome all of these animalistic instincts. Yes, we mave have come up with better ways to deal with them. But even in the course of evolution, we still possess some of the same primal instincts.

What about a boy who is 12 years old and comes to the realization that he is infact gay? Is he making a choice to be gay? No, he is going on the instinctual feelings that are within him. He see's another boy that he is attracted to. Isn't attraction a part of nature?

Animal sexuality is a pre-diposition in my eyes, therefore it proves to ME that people are born gay. You may not feel the same way, but I don't feel that you can effectively state that Gay Animals are not a valid arguement.

It's all part of nature, and as much as we have conditioned ourselves throughout our lives....that is exactly what we have done. CONDITIONED ourselves. Forced ourselves to go against our instincts based on what other people may or may not think. Do you think it's fair that someone who gay has to condition themself based off what other people think?

No, they should be with whom they want to be, and love who they want to love. If their instinct it to love someone of the same sex, then i feel it's within them and mother nature for feeling that way. And if god created this planet and all that lies within it. Then why are their Homosexual people and animals? Maybe he just wanted to test the tolerance of his creatures. Thus far, I think as a whole we have failed....

I was brought up Roman Catholic. I grew up believing that most things I do is a sin and the only way to redeem once self is a life time of penance and contrition. I'm still trying to come to terms with not having to resent the religion I was brought on, but it's a hard struggle when day by day I am faced with its hypocrisy.

"Matt - I can't wait to vote no on that horrible amendment. Unfortunately that'll be just about the last impact I can have as I'm leaving for law school and not looking back. I fucking hate Florida.

Posted by: raspberry beret at February 22, 2008 2:09 PM"

Ironically, I can't see living anywhere else except Florida, except maybe Hawaii where I spent a wonderful coming out summer in 1976. Appeared in a dinner theater production of Hello Dolly and lost my 15 year old cherry to my brother-in-law's best Navy buddy. Sure it was statutory rape but I never pressed charges. It was the 70's, honeys.

What an superb article and enlightening commentary. Scrolling down this page has given me hope that there are more logical, respectful, intelligent people around than it sometimes appears. I've only been to Pajiba a few times but if this is standard fare, consider me a devoted regular. Thank you so much for this readable, eloquent, mindful piece.

I'm a little removed from this entire issue since I'm not from the USA nor am I a Christian. I'm from India and homosexuality is absolutely taboo here. However in the ancient times, homosexuality was not really considered to be sinful or wrong. It was with the advent of the Muslim invaders and thereafter the colonization by the British that Indian society underwent great changes. The British basically tried (and in many ways succeeded) in trying to stamp all that was inherent to the native culture. They brought into the country their laws. In fact the Indian Penal Code and a couple of other pieces of legislation are rather identical to the English law of the same era. The Indian Penal Code has a section under which sodomy is a sexual offence and is punishable by imprisionment. This provision is exactly the same as that in the extant English law. They've abolished the same in the UK, but gay men here are still persecuted based on that law. The depiction of homosexuality in media and popular culture here is rather degrading. The men are effete buffoons. And women generally are never depicted as lesbians. And like the evangical christians in the US, we have Hindu and Muslim fundamentalists decrying homosexuality as a sinister "western influence" corrupting the Indian youth. Its ironic how the same brigand turned religious commentator bemoans the westernisation of the culture here while embracing the prejudices that are the remnants of our country's political and cultural subjugation.

And curiously, one of the few mainstream movies dealing with the homosexual theme is based on a Goan Catholic family...

I just don't understand how one person's sexual orientation affects anyone and why its seen as such a threat. I've had arguments with a lot of people about this and the best they can come up with is that its just "wrong". They can never back it up with reasons.

Just a few thoughts and probably not really adding anything to the discussion.

David,

I am sorry but you think the phrase "love the sinner but hate the sin," is bigotry. I do not agree with you. After reading all your comments, why do you think this phrase only applies to your sexual orientation? This phrase applies to more then just the Homosexual Community. The phrase applies to all conduct which goes against the Ten Commandments. Liars, thieves, adulterers, murders, idolaters...so basically it applies to every person on the planet, because we all break these rules, through our words/thoughts/actions. But we are to continue to forgive each other for all offenses. From the person who lied to me about his golf scores, to somebody who lusted after my wife, to the guy who stole my pen from work, all these actions are sins, but if a person came to me and asked for forgiveness and I felt he truly meant what he said, then we are to forgive each other. But I do not have to like his actions which are against the rules that GOD gave us. Furthermore, why do I have to agree with a person's sexual orientation as a pre-condition in order to any type of meaningful relationship with that person? You are missing the point, it isn't about singling out the LGBT (forgive me if I don't have acronym spelled correctly) it is about establishing a relationship with all people, based upon the principles that Jesus taught to us.

My best friend, who is also a Christian, loves to play golf on Sunday mornings. I have even gone to play a round or two with him instead of going to church. What we have done is a sin and I don't agree with him skipping out on Church by hitting the links, but it doesn't stop me from loving him as a friend. My wife wasn't a virgin when we got married, (I wasn't either), and according to the Commandment against Adultery we both are sinners, but it doesn't stop us from creating and maintaining a nurturing meaningful relationship with each other.

The point is all about Forgiveness, we ask GOD to forgive us and when we hurt other people we are suppose to ask for their forgiveness. But most importantly, we forgive those who ask us. Any action/word/thought which breaks one the Ten Commandments is a sin and that means it is hateful to GOD.

I have a very close friend who is gay. I love him much as I love one of my brothers. I cannot understand his desire to have sex with another man, but to fair, it is inconceivable to him, my desire to want to have sex with a woman. But I still love him and want him to have a full and satisfying life. If he did something which hurt me and then came to me to ask for forgiveness, if I felt he was truly sorry for it, of course I would forgive him. Every person is a sinner so we are all guilty of our sins, we are not trying to single out the Gay/Lesbian community because we are all in the wrong.

As for the comment from the other person who stated that the Bible is full of fairy tales and fictional history. This person is uninformed about history. Here are some historically proven facts.

1. The Dead Sea scrolls, carbon dated to 250 BCE - 150 BCE of every book of the Bible except for Ruth and Ester.

2. Merneptan Stele (9th century BCE): Pharaoh Merneptah figuratively describes his victory over various people in western Asia, including Israel.

3. Shalmaneser's Black Obelisk (Akkadian - 9th Century BCE) Israel's king Jehu presents tribute to Assyria's king Shalmaneser III. Additional Assyrian and Babylonian texts refer to other kings of Israel and Judah.

4. Siloam inscription (Hebrew - Late 8th century) A Judahite workman describes the construction of an underground conduit to bring fresh water to Jerusalem.

I can name many more historical non-Jewish/Israelite documents which support the historical accuracy of the Hebrew Bible. But most importantly, the Bible is 1/4 predictions, since we have evidence from 250 - 150 BCE and these documents are 95% linguistically the same as what we have 1000 years later, (our modern Biblical sources), with the remaining 5% are spelling variations and/or changes in word meaning. If you want to see how accurate is the prediction, look up what happened and when. Remember to use a lunar calendar (what the ancients used), factor in leap years, and the duplication of 1 BCE and 1 CE. So by seeing the accuracy of the predictions and knowing that the archeological evidence supports the historicity of the bible, it is up to you to believe in the miracles.

David, the phrase does not only apply to the Gay/Lesbian Community. It applies to everything which goes against the Ten Commandments.

Dustin you're right about the violence. Thats not right nor is the hypocrisy. That stinks to everyone. What I realized as I read your post is that I'm no different than the coke bottle guy. Thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't actually thought about that before.

I'm a Christian, by the way, its safe for me to add a note to the other Christians who are beating Dustin and everyone else with their bibles here. I think you've missed the point. I'm not saying I agree with the post on all points, I just think the bible-thumpers should take a step or two back and use their head for something other than a hat-rack--or would you take God's place? Don't think you can fill those shoes.

Amazingly good film. I think it should have made the Documentary of the year category.

I keep getting sucked back into this, and I really need to stop... but...

I never said "Love the sinner, hate the sin" was bigotry, I said labeling any person a sinner based on who he or she is is bigotry. By definition, a sinner is one who has done wrong before the eyes of God. A woman has not done wrong by being born a woman, a black man has not done wrong by being born black. Christians, as far as I know, do not call these two individuals sinners based on either of these traits. To do so would undoubtedly be bigotry. Then why should it be acceptable for anyone to call a homosexual a sinner?

It is because, once again, the focus is not on who this person is, but what this person does. G40, if you want to compare playing golf on Sunday morning to being gay, go ahead. Far be it from me to change your mind, and I didn't enter this forum to reeducate Christians. What I was saying was that to think the way you think, but then turn around and offer any homosexual love and friendship conditional on him or her recognizing that you believe that how we express our attractions is sinful is disingenuous. I don't need a loved one who would dare make me feel bad about who I am as a person by labeling me a perpetual sinner. Because that is the problem. All of your examples presuppose that one can ask for forgiveness and move on. Commit adultery? Ask for forgiveness, move on, don't do it again. Skip Church on Sunday? Ask for forgiveness, move on, go next week. But in the eyes of Christianity and the eyes of God, homosexuals can't win! We can't stop being homosexuals, we can't just move on. And to ask us to stop the actions that you believe are sinful is to ask us to deny what makes us individual human beings. So instead you ask that we now enter into a vicious cycle of action/feel bad about oneself/seek forgiveness/action/feel bad about oneself...etc.? THAT is not my definition of love, and with all due respect, I hope it isn't yours either!

So, in closing (hopefully), I certainly would never demand that anyone respect me for being gay or love me for being gay. But just like I don't enjoy being called a faggot by people that mean it, I also don't like being called a sinner by people that also mean it. That is what I consider bigotry, and that is why I just don't think we should be friends.

G40, your words, again, would not be so condescending and hypocritical if you would stop trying to shove your beliefs down everyone's throats. You compare homosexuality to "Liars, thieves, adulterers, murders, idolaters..." Firstly, I'd like to echo the sentiment of many of those who commented before me by saying that that liars, thieves, ect, CHOOSE to commit whatever crime they are responsibly for. Homosexuals do not CHOOSE their sexual orientation; they are born that way. Homosexuality is not a crime. So how can you equate conscious decisions to do wrong with living ones life in the manner in which they are naturally created? Secondly, I don't see any religious groups trying to restrict the constitutional rights of liars, thieves, adulterers, ect. Your, "Golly geesh guys, I don't know why you all think us Christians only apply our fire and brimstone hatred to gays, a sin is a sin, y'all..." attitude is nauseating. People will stop feeling that way when the fanatics of your faith start picketing the White House with signs that say, "GOD HATES LIARS!" or when one of you suggests a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT to ban thieves from marrying other thieves. Because of course, two thieves marrying would threaten my heterosexual marriage. Actually, those damn thieves would procreate, bearing demon-spawn SUPERTHIEVES, and that would threaten the sanctity of marriage and the moral fiber of our country as a whole. See how fucking stupid that sounds? Well replace thieves with homosexuals and you've got the main platform of the Religious Right, the Moral Majority. (Moral my ass!)

Not only do you lump homosexuality with a bunch of other "sins" that are common as proof that you're not speaking like a hypocritical bigot, but you follow that with saying, "The point is all about Forgiveness, we ask GOD to forgive us and when we hurt other people we are suppose to ask for their forgiveness. But most importantly, we forgive those who ask us." Are you actually insinuating that homosexuals, as you lump with all of those other sinners, are ok as long as they keep asking for your forgiveness? You've got to be joking, right? What the hell do they need to be forgiven for? For loving whomever they love? For not denying themselves happiness to fit your religious beliefs? You know what, why don't you ask your God for forgiveness and leave the rest of us consenting adults to lead our lives as we damn well please? You don't seem to grasp the amount of pain and suffering that people of your faith have caused and continue to cause wonderful people every day, just because they're different. People aren't disagreeing with you here simply for the joy of argument, they are stating their beliefs because they have shed sweat, blood, and tears going through the grueling process of living life comfortably in their own skin in a world full of people that hate and dismiss their very existence.

The whole "God loves sinners but hates the sin, gays are just like thieves, they just need to ask for forgiveness" speech is insulting enough, but then you throw in, "but I have a gay friend and boy do I love him!" I'm sorry, but statements such as that remind me of the racist who drops the N-Bomb and then follows it by saying, "but I'm not racist, I work with a black and get along with him," or the anti-Semite who attempts to cover their bigotry by saying they know a Jew and he's not like the rest of them. Intolerance is intolerance. Period. Hide behind your bible, hide behind your God, but please, don't think we're dumb enough not to see through your transparency.

(long-time lurker, first-time poster)

Thank you for sharing this with us, Dustin, as a tonn of people have already said. I was raised Catholic, and went to parochial school from kindergarten all the way through high school, and its this aspect of Christianity that makes me so sick, and convinces me I'd be better off not following a structured religion. :/

Magnum, as someone who received their doctorate in Theology, I feel that I've done enough research on religion to satisfy your request that one actually studies what the bible says. And the fact is, no matter what the bible says, it was written by man.

It was not written by God. It's a book. A novel. That's all it is. That's all any religious text is. It's a mortals' interpretation of what they deem God's message to be. I could just as easily write a book and claim to have received my words directly from God, but that does not make it true.

Magnum, I also encourage you to do some research on some of the banned books of the bible. These are books that were banned by MAN, not God, because they did not go along with the ideals that religious leaders wanted to convey to the masses. And that's ultimately what any religious text conveys; the message that it's respective religious leaders want it's followers to believe.

We don't know if God condemns homosexuality because he/she/it has never actually told us. Men have told us God does, because men wrote the bible. To ignore this fact is to ignore logic.

Gimme a chance to figure out why
the text has posted this way.

New at this. Try and try again.

G40,

The problem isn't that people say "love the sinner, hate the sin," it's that it's almost always used for homosexuals, and very rarely for all those other sins/sinners that you've mentioned. It comes across, especially to us gays, as a great way to be fashionable and "forward-thinking" while still harboring deep ideas that gays are somehow just sinful and misguided. Which, frankly, is almost as bad as some of the people who just hate us outright. We know where they stand. We don't know if people like you, who hate the "sin," are suddenly going to change your mind and start voting for politicians who want to take away our secular rights.

As for the bible and its historicity, can you explain to me where in history Herod's slaughter of the innocents happened? There's no historical or archeological record for that (and numerous other events that occur in the bible). When someone says that the bible isn't historically accurant, they aren't saying it's ALL made up. Besides, if you can point to the fact that it gets some names and places right, then the Illiad and Odyssey are, also, historical accounts.

Tolerance is a word that reeks of elitism.

The way I choose to live my life is superior and the proper way to live. Even though you are not making those same choices, I'll still put up with your choices because I am such a good person.

Replace gay with someone's ethnic background and see what you get. "Well, I'm not black, but I'll tolerate 'em. It sounds so enlightened.

"The problem isn't that people say "love the sinner, hate the sin," it's that it's almost always used for homosexuals, and very rarely for all those other sins/sinners that you've mentioned. "

Rowen, to be fair, it was my experience as an Evangelical, way back when, that this isn't actually the case. The phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin" is used in ALL contexts for ALL sinners (i.e., everyone). I wanted to point that out in the interest of fairness (whether "sin" as a concept is right or not is another story).

My best friend and I were run out of a church because people speculated we were lesbians and began to cut us out of activities and ministries. Parents told their children to stay away from my friend, who did teen ministry. It's disgusting what churches and individuals will do to people they suspect (or know) are gay.

Dustin --

This review struck a deep chord with me, because my father also lived a closeted gay existence...right up to his death (from liver cancer brought on by acute alcoholism, and the reader is free to draw whatever connections they like because they're probably right). While I remain blissfully unaware of any horrific treatment he received akin to that of your own father, I do know that the Catholic faith of his upbringing that he so vehemently rejected certainly played a role in his disilluisionment with...well, life.

Too, the man was a paradox. He remained married to my mother for over forty years -- sure, it was a strange and twisted relationship, but it endured nevertheless and she still misses him. He was a liberal's liberal EXCEPT when it came to abortion; there he was a bomb-thrower for the Right-To-Lifers. All I can figure is that the social pressure cooker of a closet that he occupied compressed some parts of his personality while others escaped in the steam.

Anyhow, loved the review. In spite of the fact that I agree with you, I think some of your conclusions were overdrawn...but as someone often guilty of the same crime I have to be okay with it.

Pudenda - Thank you for sharing you view point. You made some valid points. But if my friend Michael is gay, how am I supposed to tell you this fact, unless I use the word. Because if I just say my friend, what does that mean? Lets face the facts, the LGBT percentage of the population is what like 5% so if I said my friend, most people are going to assume that my friend is hetro. So enlighten me please, as to how I can describe the situation without rattling the chip on your shoulder. I am sorry that your crusade doesn't resonant with me. It doesn't. I have the right to believe in what matters to me as much as you do. I live in place where many people are going to bed hungry every day. They live in sub-standard housing. (Dustin can look up from where I am posting this. It will say Kiev.) These problems do matter to me. Maybe it doesn't matter to you, it is your choice. I frankly don't care. When you come on here and tell us HOW persecuted you are because you can't marry who you want, when people in my religion are still being tortured and killed in Sudan, the southern Philippine Islands, and Malaysia. I sorry but it isn't the same thing. Your noble cause rings hollow to me. You are not being killed systematically in the US for being of a different sexual-orientation, are you? If you are then I will support your cause.

And for the record, my friend Michael is gay. We have been friends for 8 years. He lives in Dallas with his life-mate. Granted, I haven't seen him in the last 3 years, but we still do communicate with each other. I would like you tell me how I can describe the fact he is gay without saying he is gay.

Furthermore, my point is that everybody is a sinner, everybody. There is nobody alive on this planet who is perfect, from the person who sleeps around, to the common thief. We as a nation have to have some common morays or we will end up like Serbia/Kosovo. How do you think they are in the situation they are into now. We have people who don't speak the same language, come from different ethnic, national, political, religious, and economic groups. How are we supposed to survive as a nation without one of these common traits? We won't. What evidence do you have to support your claims that homosexuality is biological pre-supposition? I am interested in reading this report. I would really like to see the evidence. I will keep an open mind about it despite your hatred for us Christians. Since I am registered voter and still vote by Absentee ballot, yes, my opinion/beliefs do count if a Constitutional Amendment will try to be passed for a definition of marriage. I will be honest with you, it is hard for me to generate sympathy towards your cause when you bash my God and my religion. Despite your scorn, there are many of us Christians who do try to make this world a better place.

Rowan - Many of us believe that the incident you are talking about was for the village and surrounding area, it was a localized event, for which we have no tangible proof. Yes, I do see your point about making claims to places described in the Bible. It would be much like thousands of years from now that a copy of a Tom Clancy novel was found, which has physical locals listed but of course is a work of fiction. Which is why I brought up the prophesies described, Homer's Iliad and Odyssey didn't make predictions hundreds or thousands of years in advance. I am not trying to convince you to become a Christian, this is not my gift. But I will not stand aside while people bash my religion and beliefs. But I will engage in a communication with everybody. Isn't this how differences are re-solved?

The very idea that I need to be a believer in the Bible and in a 20th century concept of god the father before I am allowed to even *have an opinion* is the hight of offensiveness to the attempt made here at discourse. Most of the time I believe very strongly, to each their own in matters of faith. But then someone like Magnum comes along and I remember the problem with that. Some christian (or sufficiently vocal member of another group, but in practice, in my life, only christians) wants me to feel guilty about what I'm doing in my life that involves them not one whit because of some faith that I *don't share*! If I happened to believe in the Bible *at all* there might be a smidge of point here.

I don't. I've read more of it than many chrisitians, and read commentaries by learned religious authorities. I'm a history major. Frankly, I really could not care less if my behavior is "an abomination in god's eyes" or "makes the baby jesus cry". That's your problem, and certainly not mine. And that's the crux of the issue. Christianity, like a few other religions, is COMPELLED to convert others. It's their duty. The bible really *does* tell them to do that.

I don't care how well intentioned you are. You do not get to tell me how to feel about *my* actions or deny me access to morals based on my "godlessness". Atheists have morals just like almost everyone else.

*I* don't go about asking *you* to respect the earth and the green things upon it as aspects of the divine, even though that's what I believe.

Pajiba wrote a lovely piece and most of the people here seem to have read and considered his words, so perhaps I should be content.

I couldn't read all of these right now (but I will later) but I read up to a half, which is quite a lot. So much has already been said, and I don't know if what I'll say was already done, but anyway, really quick:

"magnum - I have to disagree that a sense of right & wrong or rules come from religion. There are a few new studies that show that people are born with an inherent sense of morality"

You don't need "new studies" to realize this : ) We've known it all along.

"Because in order to truly LOVE our neighbor that would mean for us to go out of our way for them and preach to them as Christ did when on earth"

If you love me, like me, or have no opinion of me, IT DOESN'T MATTER but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do me a huge favor and do NOT go out of your way to preach to me, ever. Thanks. : )

"I hate no one, but that doesn't change the fact that 1 Cor. 6:9,10 clearly states that men lying with men will NOT inherit God's kingdom... There are a ton of other examples in the Bible that clearly state God's view point on the matter."

Not to sound like a know it all, but from the bottom of my heart I ask you to look into yours, because you really know nothing about God or his viewpoints : )

The other day in California a 14 year old walked into a computer class at school and shot his classmate point blank in the head. The reason? The student had admitted publicly a week earlier that he was gay.

First of all, let me say that I am an atheist, so I don't follow any religion. However, because I find human belief systems to be a fascinating subject, I have studied several of them, Christianity being one of them. Based upon those studies, I have a couple of points I'd like to make. The rules that are given in Leviticus are part of the first covenant between man and God. Those rules were supplanted by the second covenant, the covenant established by Jesus Christ as God's son. The second covenant replaces the laws of the first covenant with new laws. To summarize the teachings of Jesus and the new covenant, I quote noted historians Bill S. Preston, Esq. and Ted "Theodore" Logan, "Be excellent to each other." It doesn't get any simpler than that.

I just got this via Netflix, and even as a heterosexual atheist who supports homosexual rights, I found this documentary to be moving and enlightening. I recommend it for everyone, regardless of beliefs or sexual orientation.

Do you believe in the three questions that are two? I do.

well, i don't think i can add anything more to what has been said above, i am personally not religious (as in organized/everything is gods will type of religious) at all (anyone who can think logically is not, regardless of if they admit it or not), but i have no problem with someone who is religious because they need that to feel secured and peaceful because they are weak or do not have the ability to reason in their mind (which includes many of my beloved family members), it is just sad that a lot of these people still control everyone's fate, today i live a life that i would rather not becasue of all the things being said above, i was dumbfounded when i learned that so many people would vote for someone like huckabee, someone who says they have majored in miracles and not math, i don't know if he really believes that or not (and i don't care), but what i care about and am deathly scared of is all these millions of people that are ready to make him the president of this country (and defacto of the world)! i wish us all good luck