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Jesus is My O-Face

Fireproof / Phillip Stephens

Film Reviews | September 29, 2008 | Comments (94)

Imagine if some monstrous anthropomorphism of one of those low budget shows on the Christian Broadcasting Network were gene-spliced with a Lifetime Original Movie. The resulting abomination would be something like Fireproof, a ghastly piece of evangelical agit-prop cloaked in a love story about a fireman (Kirk Cameron … oh dear) trying to save his marriage. Given the facts at hand, I was mentally girding myself for a multi-pronged assault on every sensibility I possessed. And really, Fireproof wasn’t as appalling a movie as all that, but neither was it really a movie at all; rather, Fireproof is a pat afterschool special, a sentimental grasp for inspiration with a dull, inevitable arc. Would this film merit any attention at all if not for the divisive fact that it’s larded with pop Christian truisms and perfunctory bits of dogma? No. In fact, it doesn’t merit that attention anyway, save for the disturbing fact that there are people capable of viewing this shit without irony.

Cameron plays firefighter captain Caleb, a dimwitted autochthon in Bumbledick, Georgia, whose marriage is floundering like a dead minnow. Caleb doesn’t really understand why his frigid, equally dim wife Catherine (played by no one cares) doesn’t like it when he whines incessantly and then screams in her face. Both parties seem eager for a divorce. Right off the bat it’s impossible to care about these two blunt caricatures or their relationship because their characterizations run the gamut from dull to pitiably stupid: Caleb is a loud, angry buffoon; Catherine a callow, vapid drone. The wantonly terrible acting doesn’t help. I swear, there’s bad acting, and then there’s Fireproof, wherein the performances by the two principals and ensemble cast are so inept, they provoke genuine pity, like a primary school pageant filled with six-year-olds struggling through their lines. Only instead of six-year-olds, these are adults who fill me with disgust.

Anyway, the couple seems headed for a nice, healthy divorce when Caleb’s dad convinces him to hold off for forty days in a last ditch effort to save his vacuous marriage. Papa gives Caleb a little notebook and invites him to participate in a “love dare,” a series of daily trials meant to re-ingratiate himself with his wife. All forty lessons are various permutations of “stop being an asshole” peppered with a Biblical passage largely devoid of any context. Caleb, to his credit, doesn’t suplex his father into the dirt for suggesting an idea of such epochal lameness, and agrees to do the “love dare” anyway. Caleb then spends half the movie trying to woo Catherine with stupid gestures which don’t work. He then realizes his marriage, nay, his entire life! has been a boring and deeply retarded lie because God hasn’t been involved. So Caleb kowtows to the Almighty and things start going his way. Now he’s no longer an asshole, just boring and really sanctimonious. After several paper-thin catharses and a billion crying sessions, Caleb wins back his dumb wife’s love and respect. Hooray for Jeebus.

And again, seriously, Fireproof wasn’t as cataclysmically terrible as I was expecting. If you can ignore the negligible acting talent, shoestring production values, reification of traditional gender roles and ideologically repulsive nature of the script, the film is perfectly watchable. Perhaps more than the movie itself (a relatively innocuous one, even by propagandist standards), it’s the social culture surrounding it that I find so unsettling. The grim Arkansas hamlet I grew up in could’ve been a stand-in for everything I saw in Fireproof, and sitting in a packed theater with 200 Christards who laughed, cried and clapped like drunken marionettes to every string pulled by this idiotic movie filled me with a nostalgic terror. As an orthodox skeptic, I always found the frenzied fictions of WASP evangelism (including skits [performed by other kids] of demons dragging off otherwise good people into eternal torture for the unforgivable sin of not going through the rote dogmatic motions) vaguely horrifying. And Fireproof is just another turd in this toilet. Only instead of straight-to-video laugh riots, like that crapocalyptic Left Behind series (also starring Cameron), this was a theatrically released box office success. Think I need to lie down for a while…

Phillip Stephens is the lead critic and book editor for Pajiba. He lives in Fayetteville, Arkansas.


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Comments

Wait, I need to know something before I continue reading: does Bumbledick really exist???

Posted by: Sofía at September 29, 2008 9:21 AM

firefighter captain Caleb, a dimwitted autochthon in Bumbledick, Georgia, whose marriage is floundering like a dead minnow
Beautiful. And I feel your pain when it comes to those fits of "WASP evangelism". I was in many a skit in the days of my youth. I had a recurring role in our Good Friday performance as the soldier who killed Jesus. This is entirely true. I wore a little gladiator outfit and I got to stick him with a lil' spear when we has hanging on the cross.

Posted by: Optimus Rhyme at September 29, 2008 9:29 AM

Optimus, do soldiers wear anything under the leather skirt?

Posted by: Sofía at September 29, 2008 9:31 AM

Mind you, I was around... 8-10? at the time. So no. Naught but my leather jerkin and the suit God gave me on my birthday.

Posted by: Optimus Rhyme at September 29, 2008 9:35 AM

Incredible. Only Kirk Cameron can ruin every single firefighter fantasy I've ever had. Jerkface. Thanks a bunch Jeebus, you've killed my libido.

Posted by: Jeremy at September 29, 2008 9:47 AM

the frenzied fictions of WASP evangelism (including skits [performed by other kids] of demons dragging off otherwise good people into eternal torture
You mean like that show Heaven's Gates, Hell's Flames? I remember that one. The "production" would come to town and the kids at the church would perform in it. It was creepy as shit. The kids playing the demons always seemed to have the most fun, honestly.

For the record, I was raised Southern Baptist in South Louisiana. I stopped going because the youth minister told all the kids I was evil (I was busy wearing black clothes and being 13, like you do) and encouraged them to be incredibly nasty. Didn't seem to make sense to me, so I left. The fact that my father had recently become ordained and temporarily went batshit insane over it (he burned my copy of the game LOOM) didn't help with the whole "Yay church!" sentiment.

So . . . yeah. This movie looks awful. Why can't Kirk just have stopped with Like Father Like Son? That was a funny movie.

Posted by: Sharon at September 29, 2008 9:57 AM

Just a thought: do you think people flock to the theaters to watch this because they'd watch ANYTHING that contains their message, no matter how poorly executed?
Kind of like Christian rock music - it's horrible, but people are willing to overlook how awful the music/singing, because the lyrics are what matters to them?

Kind of like: I watched Alias way past its first season, bad writing and contrived plot twists, simply because I loved having a kickass female protagonist.

Posted by: Stella at September 29, 2008 10:02 AM

This takes me back! Although my fear and loathing experience with evangelicals came much later (I was in college when I got roped in by Intervarsity Christian Fellowship, for whom I even led small groups for a while! Yikes! Makes the Catholicism of my youth--I wanted to grow up to be the Pope, I shit you not--seem quaint in comparison) I am all too familiar with what passes for "drama" and--shudder!--"family values" in that world. I had to go and get a doctorate to learn to distrust the dogma and run away. Kind of an expensive recovery, if you ask me.

Now what I don't get is this: this thing had/has a theatrical release? How come I've never heard of it? Sounds like the mildly amusing Lifetime movies that my mother-in-law likes to tivo and half-heartedly watch while she works, only with more sanctimonious dogma from Kirk "the atheist's nightmare" Cameron.

Posted by: Armando at September 29, 2008 10:06 AM

It is in some theaters, and I've seen the signs outside the megachurches in town encouraging the congregation to go and see it. I suppose it would be worth it to a theater to run it if a church can guarantee a sellout.
Of course, the churches also advertise a "marriage help" bullshit thing following the movie.

Posted by: Sharon at September 29, 2008 10:11 AM

Just a thought: do you think people flock to the theaters to watch this because they'd watch ANYTHING that contains their message, no matter how poorly executed?

Posted by: Stella

I think that's why most people go to the movies. It might seem poorly executed to us, but maybe they can look past it (or don't really know the difference between a film and movie) and focus on what matters to them. There's a great deal of empathy searching in the movie business. Or at least there used to be.

Posted by: Sofía at September 29, 2008 10:15 AM

Dammit.

Seriously? This movie means all of the women that I know will be going to see it (I'll be conveniently busy, mind you) and it means they'll all come back and talk about the power of love and blah blah blah. And then they'll demand to know why I'm not married yet.

Keep in mind "I'm 21" is just _not_ an acceptable answer (two of my friends are already married and several are engaged). And then they'll remind me that I'd just be soooo pretty if I was just a little quieter when around the boys and I'd be just so sweet if I wasn't _that_ smart all the time. True story!

And then they'll tell me that I need to find a guy like Reformed-Awesome-Times-Blandy-Pants-Fireman (TM) and that's all I'll ever need!

*vomit*

Oh, and we never had the "DEMONS!" at my church (which, now that I think about it, is strange considering how southern baptist it was). But... I do remember we had a retelling of the Christmas story where a bunch of kids played almost like the Bethlehem version of Romeo & Juliet and I was the leader of the Shepherds (the poor kids...) and I had an "angry" duet with the douchebag leader of the City Kids (the douchebag kids) whose sister my character's brother had a crush on or something. And then something happened where his sister could speak again... Something about a miracle. But anyway, no demons but it was still way more fun to be The Bitch!

Posted by: Kayanne at September 29, 2008 10:19 AM

You know what movie I want to see made about marriage?

Paul Newman + Joanne Woodward

I want to know what kind of passion it takes to live that kind of life.
I want to know how they managed 50+ years. I want to see what it was about her that made Newman state: I have steak at home, why would I go out for hamburger? when asked why he hadn't strayed (such a quaint word, strayed). I want to know what it was about him that kept her with him through years in a business that churns through people's relationships.

Posted by: Stella at September 29, 2008 10:32 AM

What a great advertisement for the faith. *eye roll*

I'm on the side of the Christians here (Catholic convert from fundamentalism, though I switched teams to get married, not for the theological ramifications), but ... hellfire and damnation, we make some extraordinarily lame entertainment (Stryper?). We have one of the greatest books ever written for source material -- full of every kind of vice you can name, plus amazingly complex characters (good guys and bad guys) and astonishing events -- and THIS is what we come up with?

This reminds me of a DVD my stepmom brought us from their trip to Italy. It was a tour of the unbelievably great artworks of the Vatican, and somehow it managed to be one of the dullest things I've ever slogged through.

So ... normally I'd have something to say about the nonstop Christian bashing but, in the case of "Fireproof" at the very very least, often we get what we deserve.

Posted by: nucdaddy at September 29, 2008 10:34 AM

A lot of evangelical congregations frown on haunted houses at Halloween 'cause they're satanic, so they put on those "judgement (sic) house" dramas where someone goes to hell for eternal punishment. I went to one with my cousin one time. The first act was about the evils of drunk driving, with the teenage protagonist driving drunk and causing a fatal accident. The second act opened with the wreck victim going to eternal torment because he had been a non-believer. I don't think the play ever went back to the original lead who caused said accident. So, not only was it poorly acted, but it didn't even make sense logically.

Posted by: rlr260 at September 29, 2008 10:34 AM

Just a question: Why do all Christians have to be labeled as "Christards", as though we're all mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging, socially retarded lunatics whose only goal in life is to "tell them sinners they're goin to hell!"? Believe it or not but not all of us hate gay people, or shove our beliefs down others throats. Not all of us are republican, or think you're going to hell for having a different opinion.. or dancing or something equally ridiculous. And not all of us enjoy shitty movies with "actors" who we wish would shut the hell up already! *huff* ..And now I'll slink back into my dark little corner.

..I'm sure that the punctuation in there was all wrong but I've been up since the crack of early fuck and I don't care..

Posted by: melon at September 29, 2008 10:48 AM

Ok, as a non-"Christard" but Christian.

I think I can add some clarity: The people who saw this movie were of the Christard persuasion. These people make me grate my teeth. Not everyone who believes in Jesus is a "Christard."

At least that's what I hope was being said. But maybe I'm used to it. I often have discussions with my friends that end with them saying something like "Christians are so intolerant and/or ignorant!... Well, not you, of course."

Of course, Christian could be (and has been) replaced with "Southerner." Maybe I'm just used to people assuming I come from "stupid stock" and then being pleasantly surprised when I "talk real good." (Especially for a girl!!!!)

OR! Maybe it's not just "Christards" that work on preconceived and ignorant stereotypes about a group of people and anyone can have hang-ups by working on an often incorrect generalization of someone. Nyah, that can't be it at all.

Posted by: Kayanne at September 29, 2008 10:58 AM

Essplain what you mean by "reification." I do not think it means what you think it means. (It means to make an abstract idea concrete; I think you just meant that the film reinforces gender roles.)

I too have seen those Christian haunted houses, and they are weird. Half the time, I suspect it's just a way for conservative evangelicals to get their rocks off (look ye well at the depravity of bondage and sodomy, my children!) while remaining self-righteous.

Posted by: Girlnone at September 29, 2008 10:59 AM

Incredible. Only Kirk Cameron can ruin every single firefighter fantasy I've ever had. Jerkface. Thanks a bunch Jeebus, you've killed my libido.

Fuck it Jeremy. Kirk is kind of hot if you can get him to shut his face, and that's what ball gags are for.

And Melon, I'm sure your brand of Christianity isn't batshit insane, but until you make a movie about it, how will we know?

Posted by: Marra at September 29, 2008 11:01 AM

melon and kayanne, you're right; you shouldn't be lumped into the Christard group. Unfortunately, it is the tendency of our generation to lump everything into black and white.

There is no such thing as a free-thinking, socially liberal Christian, silly rabbit. Just like there is no such thing as a socially liberal, fiscally conservative Democrat. Or a Republican, apparently.

We are all of us painted with broad strokes of black and white because the concept of gray is waaay too confusing for some people to grasp.

Posted by: Stella at September 29, 2008 11:17 AM

So ... normally I'd have something to say about the nonstop Christian bashing but, in the case of "Fireproof" at the very very least, often we get what we deserve.

To you and the other brave smart Christians who've posted--and also to anyone else--I'd like to recommend The End of the Spear if you haven't seen it.

I was sorta tricked into watching it because I figured a "Christian" movie would be crap; also, the plot is about missionaries, and I am opposed to proselytizers of all stripes.

I was really shocked when the film turned out to be quite good. Its message is completely Christian but is presented in a fair, believable and appealing way. (It's based on real events.) The acting is good, too.

Just mentioning it because of the question of whether a strictly Christian agenda can result in quality entertainment--it can.

Posted by: Jerce at September 29, 2008 11:18 AM

I had a huge crush on Kirk Cameron from Growing Pains, and years later when I found out he was in the Left Behind stuff, I was crushed. Crushed. Since I would never see this movie for any reason, that is all I have to say. (I mean seriously, all I have to do is ignore terrible acting and terrible messages? I'd rather not have to.)

Posted by: Sabrina at September 29, 2008 11:36 AM

This got a rave review in the fine publication, The Long Island Catholic (it gets sent to my parents, my brother and I enjoy reading it for its propagandized social commentary). The author went so far as to say it should be required viewing for all married couples. Because, you know, a miserable unhappy marriage is better than divorce.

Posted by: CC at September 29, 2008 11:52 AM

Can we at least give it props for the message that you should at least TRY to save your marriage before heading to Divorce Court?

I mean, say what you will about the Christian God message, how many movies do you see coming out that show a marriage that is saved? Or one that thrives? As I've mentioned in probably more comments than I should have, the reason I enjoyed the Mummy movies so much is that at least the two main protagonists not only wind up married, but STAY married throughout! It's why I hated the turn that the Bourne Supremacy took when they knocked off Franke - why does Hollywood fear the married couple so much?
I don't know, I'm less upset that a movie like Fireproof exists because it is so unambivilent in its message and tone. Everyone who goes to see this knows exactly what to expect.

Posted by: Stella at September 29, 2008 12:10 PM

If you want to watch a film that embodies the real Christian values of tolerance, kindness, community, forgiveness, love and grace, then I recommend Chocolat.

That is all.

Posted by: bibliophile at September 29, 2008 12:14 PM

Jerce

End of the Spear was pretty awesome. Very well done, indeed. But sadly, it's the exception to the rule.

And Stella I will immediately assume that everyone fits in a very specific cookie cutter image of what I have of them in my festered little brain. I will also be unable to change my view on them based on legitimate points that show that their character is different than I have perceived. I think living like everything and everyone is a 2-Dimensional character will be awesome. It'll be like living in my own version of The Hills.

*shudder*

Posted by: Kayanne at September 29, 2008 12:16 PM

You people have it easy. I was raised mormon and there is a thriving film industry out there in Utah valley. They even have their own little version of Best in Show - Sons of Provo (however for anyone who had to cope with mormon culture as a kid it is a tiny bit cathartic... please make it manifest).

Posted by: Megan at September 29, 2008 12:33 PM

I was raised Catholic (loosely) but when my mom remarried we went to an Episcopal church because she was a bit pissed about having her marriage annulled and me becoming a bastard child in the eyes of the church.

Every Sunday we went to this Episcopal church and listened to a nice story, then a parable that tied to that day's reading, then shaking hands, communion, an Our Father, and we were out. Then it was downstairs for donuts and coffee/punch. It was very normal and a not unpleasant way to spend 50 minutes on a Sunday morning. There was no weird agenda, no politicizing, and everyone there really tried to do nice things for each other.

What the hell happened to those kinds of churches? I know they exist, I've seen them and been to one in the last year. So why does every single mention of Christians in the media ALWAYS reference the batshit insane Evangelical movement?

I've got news for you, most Christians and Catholics I know (and I'm in the midwest so it's a lot) do not believe the Bible should be taken literally. I don't know anyone that thinks it was dictated by God, but rather an interesting story and a good set of rules to live by (at their essence) and written by man over the course of a few hundred years.

I know this is long winded but the point is that the Christards HAVE hijacked Christianity in America. Just as efficiently as the Taliban and AL Qaeda hijacked Islam, and just as repugnant. To the point where anything related to Christianity is immediately smeared with derision. It's a sad commentary, and the vast majority of Christians do not deserve to be painted with that brush.

Posted by: TylerDFC at September 29, 2008 12:46 PM

Mr Stella came home one day last week while I was watching "Jesus Camp" on Netflix - and based on what he heard from the other room, asked me why I was watching a horror movie.

I say this not to be flip, but to illustrate that to most people the Christianity spouted by "Evangelicals" does not resemble any religion most of us were exposed to growing up.

Posted by: Stella at September 29, 2008 12:54 PM

I mean, say what you will about the Christian God message, how many movies do you see coming out that show a marriage that is saved?

Hm.

The Story Of Us, Cinderella Man, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, - heck, even Knocked Up, although that's more of a common-law relationship being saved rather than a marriage per se.

But it's not that hard, even with the caveat that marriage, being as it is a lengthy story of processes and incidents over time rather than a dramatic short-term storyline, is more suited to television than movies.

Posted by: mightygodking at September 29, 2008 12:59 PM

mightygodking I own Mr & Mrs Smith precisely because the premise revolves around them as a married couple (a formiddable one, at that). I'm not familiar with Story of Us and I refuse to watch Cinderella Man because I don't like Zellweger, but I take your point.

Still, 3 movies up against the hundreds over the same period of time?

Posted by: Stella at September 29, 2008 1:04 PM


It sucks because derogatory terms like this aren't easily defined, and I'm sure some people will walk away from this calling every Christian they meet a Christard; I'm sure people will be lumped into this category unfairly. It sucks because the word itself combines the name of Christ (which, to some of us, is a sacred thing, even if it isn't to others of us) with retard - which, to be honest, is offensive on a couple of levels ('cause really? using the term retard to be funny?). It sucks because this word promotes a stereotype about religious people that is unfair. Yes, I've met Christians who are assholes. I've also met incredibly kind and open-minded Christians. Because Christians are PEOPLE and you're always going to get good and bad when you're taking stock of ANY group of people. I really think this is small minded and assholey and quite honestly, it just freaking sucks.

I'm sick of certain people around here picking and choosing which groups they can attack and make fun of and stereotype the shit out of - taking strict PC attitudes towards certain groups, but apparently leaving the mentally disabled and religious folks as fair game. Behave with some integrity - if you think you should be respectful and tolerant towards your fellow mankind, then BE respectful and tolerant, and not just towards those with whom you agree. Because to be honest, the most racist, closed-minded son-of-a-bitch is probably perfectly capable of being nice to his white neighbor. You're only being tolerant and open-minded when you had negative and ill-conceived notions and stereotypes about a certain group in the first place, and took the time to overcome them.

And I don't care if you knew so-and-so growing up who was a big fat asshole and a Christian and it turned you off to religion and blah blah blah. I got in a huge fight with my black roommate in college because she screwed me over by not paying her share of our last two months of rent. Is it okay for me to slap any negative opinions I had of her onto every black person I meet? Fuck no. That would be the shittiest, sickest, most ignorant type of attitude ever. Doing so would make me a gigantic asshead. So why should it be okay for someone to assume all (except for, you know, their one or two religious friends who are the "exception") Christians are teeny-minded shit-for-brains because they had a bad experience with a particular church or a particular Christian or have looked through some extremist crazy-ass website?

Posted by: tt_marie at September 29, 2008 1:38 PM

For some reason my first paragraph of my rant wasn't posted...so this was supposed to come first:


I have to be honest here. As a Christian - a relatively normal one, I think - I find the term you've coined - "Christard" - ridiculously offensive. I really do. I'm sure it'll be argued that it only references "certain kinds" of Christians, but I don't give a shit. I've known racist and/or bigoted assholes that use derogatory terms and try to justify it by saying that it's okay because they're only talking about "certain types" of homosexuals/blacks/Latinos/whatever. Well fuck that. It is still offensive and it is still stereotyping. Just like I'm sure it bothers the people who aren't the "certain type" of homosexual/black/Latino/whatever being referenced, the term "Christard" bothers me even though I don't think I'm "that type" of Christian.

Posted by: tt_marie at September 29, 2008 1:39 PM

Meh... Me? I thought I had it bad when people started making cookie jars out of my likeness. I'm just glad I haven't got crazy-ass Cameron on my side. What a weirdo!

Posted by: Buddha at September 29, 2008 1:40 PM

Nice review. "Autochthon" is pushing it, though. It's a "what's a synonym for..." word. "Neanderthal" will suffice, as will "cretin."

Only You can Prevent Thesaurus Abuse

Posted by: RudeMorgue at September 29, 2008 1:47 PM

I loved "The Story Of Us." Michelle Pfeiffer will continue to be my biggest girl-crush, and she makes Bruces Willis seem... nothing like Bruce Willis, which can be a good thing in this kind of movie.

The supporting cast didn't really do it for me. Between Rita Wilson's overly dramatic character and Rob Reiner's masturbatory performance I have to say I'd rather watch Willis and Pfeiffer acting off each other for the entire 95 minutes of the film. And man, isn't Michelle Pfeiffer awesome?

Another movie about a married couple making it: Indecent Proposal. That's right.

Posted by: Sofía at September 29, 2008 3:06 PM

tt_marie, as a fellow sane Christian, (who happens to be fed the hell up with loudmouth christards), I get your frustration with the term, and its inherent disrespect. Before all the "lighten up, Francis" responses pile up, I don't think the term was used to paint all Christians with a negative brush - to me it clearly referenced the trained seals in the theatre who couldn't recognise cinematic turds because they were church-coloured. As for the term's blasphemy score, and offensive value? It's a whole lot less offensive than using Christ's name as an exclamation of disgust (see today's WIMB) in that it mocks people who presume to associate themselves with Christ's name by calling them what they are (in cinematic terms, anyway). There's a lot of retards out there who revel in ignorance, bigotry, hatred, discrimination, etc - one of them's even running for VP! To me "christard" is a way of calling a spade a spade, forcibly taking them down a peg or ten and calling them out for daring to associate mindlessness, trite, non-excellent shite with their saviour. Christians are supposed to represent and exemplify excellence and humility and love in all they do - what better way to bring the hammer down on them than to call their bullshit in a way that explicitly grabs their attention and puts a correct label on their behaviour? On normal people, I use "fucking moron" (see GWB) since they're not consentually called to excellence - why not use a stronger term on the "saved" to point out hypocrisy? That the saviour's name is referenced is incidental - it's already been disgraced by the recipient's conduct, and the object of scorn is the person, not the saviour, so blasphemy and thus offensive score should be pretty low.

So, lighten up, Francis.

And don't even get me started on the devolution of excellence in Christian art and music - from Bach to hymns to lobotomised Pentecostal crap??? Count me in on the Mr. & Mrs Smith love, too - what better way to save a marriage than with knives, guns, explosives, and post-deathmatch make-up sex? Rrrowr!

Posted by: lordhelmet at September 29, 2008 3:26 PM

Who's more intolerant, atheists or Christians? Christians, you know why? Because we hate Christians, too. It's like a religious war is going on with Christians, and there's two sides: there's Christians and there's Christards. Now, the Christards have got to go.

Every time a Christian is trying to worship God, ignorant-ass Christards have to come along with their "God Hates Fags" signs and ruin it for us.

Can't go watch "Dogma" without Christards protesting it and calling it an abomination. What kind of ignorant shit is that? It's a movie with a giant poop monster, you dumbass!

I love Christians, but I hate Christards. Boy, I hate them. I wish I could prosecute them Roman circus style.

Boy, you can't say shit around Christards. You can't say shit without Christards fucking it all up. You can't have a gay cousin -- you know those Christards motherfuckers are gonna show up at his house and tell his parents: "I heard your boy is going to HELL!"

Damn! I'm tired, tired, tired, TIRED of Christards.

The worst thing about Christards is they always wanna impose their shit on people who disagree with them. You say evolution, they say creationism. Christards, I didn't come from nobody's rib! I rather be a monkey than a rib; at least that's a whole entity and not just some lame-ass bone nobody cares about.

A Christard came up to me the other day and said, "why do you have to say that? It ain't us, it's the liberal media. It ain't us, it's the liberal media." When I watch a Sarah Palin interview I ain't hearing the liberal media, I'm hearing a Christard!

Posted by: Sofía at September 29, 2008 3:30 PM

..as a fellow sane Christian...

I thought Christians didn't believe in the Schwartz, my dark coifed friend...

...or is it the other way around?

Oh, and as recently reaffirmed-Christian former agnostic...I have to agree with the Christards have got to go sentiment. They're the main reason I resisted for so long.

Posted by: Shadows of Dakaron at September 29, 2008 3:34 PM

Sofia, mi corazon, would you like to go watch some of George Carlin's best with me? You bring the drinks, I'll bring the popcorn. And after, we can make fun of McPalin!

Shadows my friend, the Schartz is my secret weapon, kinda like the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch - its use and origin are Apocryphal, but nonetheless Very. Menacingly. Real.

Posted by: lordhelmet at September 29, 2008 3:46 PM

You bring the drinks, I'll bring the popcorn.
Posted by: lorhelmet

Of course! I love hanging out with underage boys.

Posted by: Sofía at September 29, 2008 3:51 PM

I am pleasantly surprised at the number of "normal christians" who peruse this site, and glad I'm not alone in the irritation that comes over me when I'm lumped in with the hellfire and brimstone whackjobs.
And Kayanne I feel your pain on the Southern discrimination. Being from Georgia not only am I a bible-thumping, judgemental, self righteous Holy Roller... but apparently I'm also a gun-toting, uneducated, racist, hillbilly uncle fucker... obviously all you people north of the mason dixon are so open minded.
Oh and Jerce, I had heard The End of the Spear was decent but have held off seeing it afraid that I was getting suckered, good to know it really does have the all clear.

Posted by: melon at September 29, 2008 3:54 PM

Aaaaand I just read the rest of the comments.. thanks Sofia, I just nosed my tea..

Posted by: melon at September 29, 2008 4:06 PM

Of course! I love hanging out with underage boys.

Oh Sof, you flattererer...that's the first time in 9 years I've been described as underage! Makes my wife getting ID'd on our 5th anniversary for drinks look trivial in comparison! Now I feel a lot younger, you cunning suckup..

Hands melon a napkin

Posted by: lordhelmet at September 29, 2008 4:14 PM

I see you're not underage and you're married. Then why the hell am I buying the drinks?

Posted by: Sofía at September 29, 2008 4:20 PM

As Meaux could tell you, I'm the non-drinker on the ship, and she's my Chief Drinking Officer.

And I'm kinda cheap.

Posted by: lordhelmet at September 29, 2008 4:33 PM

Anybody who's truly interested in what kinds of people fall under the "Christian" umbrella would do well to read up on the growing schism among evangelicals...Here are a couple links describing "liberal" evangelical Christians:

http://www.christianalliance.org/site/c.bnKIIQNtEoG/b.593859/k.CC2/Our_Values.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Hunter#Author

Of course, pigeonholing does mean larger targets for your scorn, not to mention eliminating that pesky "get to know people as individuals" and "think things over" stuff.

P.S. I am a lapsed Baptist and hardline non-believer.

Posted by: Jerce at September 29, 2008 5:06 PM

Lordhelmet, i hear you. My panties are in a big ole' bunch; I acknowledge this. However, I have a hard time believing that the derogatory term "christard" was coined to put the Christians-who-give-Christ-a-bad-name in thier place since the dude who coined it is a self-proclaimed athiest. And if the label is merely aimed at Christinas with bad taste in movies and music as you say, that wouldn't necessarily make them the kind of Christinas that give Christ a bad name anyway. Nowhere does phillip say this his label is aimed at THOSE kind of Christians - you know, the assholey folks yelling at women walking into abortion clinics or telling somebody's gay son he's going to burn in hell. There is no indication that the categorization is that limited. Further, re-read the review and tell me it wasn't pretty hostile towards Christianity in general - the reference to the "repulsive" message of the film, for example. Finally, Phillip acknowledges that this film wasn't as terrible as he expected - which would lead me to believe it was in the mediocre/unremarkable/blah category. Besides the religious message, it is essentially a tame romantic drama - no offensive message like with torture porn or something. So do the people who enjoy it really deserve to be treated with this level of disgust and given such a label?

Posted by: tt_marie at September 29, 2008 5:45 PM

Jerce, I'd happily sign on to those values, they closely mirror Christ's own priorities as compassionate and restorative, not on rampaging, pointless, abusive, hypocritical, and vindictive power trips. Christians serving and caring for their communities = good. Christians screaming at nonbelievers, browbeating dissidents, and trying to use state forums to push their beliefs/agendas, or use their power to inhibit social progress (Catholics and the HPV vaccine, or even condoms!) = consummate disgraces deserving a royal bitch-slapping.

I'm all for getting to know people as individuals and trying to reason things out, but I have a minimal tolerance for outrageous, even if well-intentioned, behaviour that sullies the reputation of the Saviour and the followers that actually get what He was all about. I'd quibble about this actually constituting "pigeonholing" but let's face it, for all the good quiet Christians serving the poor or working for justice, there's several very high-profile blowhards riding their one-issue hobby horse, loudly sounding off on things they know nothing about and in general being assholier-than-thou. Along with their unthinking followers, I can think of no better recipients for scorn.

tt_marie, when I use the term "fucking morons" as my non-Christian-target insult, am I automatically insulting all atheists/nonChristians? I see Phillip mentioning "200 chistards" - that hardly sounds all-encompassing. But if we're going to read it differently that's fine I guess. Yes, Christians with bad taste don't necessarily mean they're the ones being assholes, but generally the ones mindlessly swallowing this stuff tend to be the same ones who don't condemn the assholes because "their hearts are in the right place." And let's face it, any Christian art (books, music, movies) that adequately toes the line of "God can make anything better" tends to get the community stamp of "excellence" in spite of its overwhelming simplistic, insulting mediocrity (which Christians unquestioningly accept - settling for and endorsing less than excellence). And hostile to Christianity in general - while on this site that shouldn't surprise you, it in no way automatically condemns every believer, given the number of respected believers who play nicely in this sandbox. Frankly, I find torture porn to be more useful than tame pseudo-religious romantic dramas, because the torture at least underscores the reality that people are capable of unspeakable acts (as evidenced by the minds that conceive of the shows), while pseudo-romantic religious dramas blithely slap a Jesus-shaped bandaid on a real problem, hug, sing a happy song, and move along while the underlying issue festers. Which of these perpetuates a more healthy expectation of life?

Posted by: lordhelmet at September 29, 2008 6:06 PM

Holy cow, re-reading this tells me 1) I'm starting to give TMax a run for his rambling money; and 2) I'm kinda cynical. So, now that I've given you my introduction, let me tell you how I really feel...

Hockey season can't come fast enough.

Posted by: lordhelmet at September 29, 2008 6:10 PM

If you want to discuss the message of the film, I'd say this: I actually do believe that following biblical principles could indeed improve or 'save' a marriage. Why? Doesn't Christ teach us to place others first and to be humble and selfless? Doesn't he teach us the value of service and kindness? Why wouldn't these kinds of teachings help someone improve a marriage if they actually adhered to them? Why is that a crazy/ignorant/vapid message? No, there's no quick-fix to a tough problem like a failing marriage, but real honest-to-goodness changes in perspective and priorities would be a good way to begin to heal a strained relationship. Would it necessarily work? Nope. But could it? I'd venture to say it might. In any event, I think it is not a shallow or pointless message, much less an offensive one.

Posted by: tt_marie at September 29, 2008 6:23 PM

tt_marie, I absolutely agree that for believers especially Christ's teachings could definitely be helpful - love, humility, selflessness, all great. What's ignorant/crazy/vapid is how they're portrayed and implemented - verses without context, paper-thin characters and catharses, trite explanations and pat answers being miraculous cure-alls without requiring hard work at relationship fixing, how core personality changes occur overnight...how an asshole abusive husband finds Jesus and repents, only to repeatedly relapse while the Biblically-correct doormat subservient wife just turns the other cheek and takes it while the kids cry, and somehow it's all ok because he keeps finding Jesus and saying he's sorry...

The message itself isn't pointless or shallow, but the way it's portrayed is especially the offensive part (as shown in the review how what could have been a good plot and/or outreach device was hamfisted enough to get a strongly resentful review). How are inept acting, shite production, and stereotypical characters laudable, let alone excellent? How can a good message be received, or good seeds be sown, if it's just stuck in carelessly thrown around balls of shit? How can Christian art be taken seriously or well-received if Christians are so half-assed in making it and uncritical about their own efforts?

Posted by: lordhelmet at September 29, 2008 6:41 PM

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
-Mohandas Gandhi

Posted by: Kayanne at September 29, 2008 7:50 PM

I am a little confused. So Christians are the ignorant people following whatever they are told? Always pushing their views on others? How many of you who are commenting have seen the movie? Or are you just commenting and talking about something you have been told about the movie in this review?

If you are married you will know what is going on in the movie because marriage is a lot of work. This is a low budget film and it looks like one. It is not a hollywood production with action and adventure like The Dark Knight. (Which is a great movie.)

Being a follower of Christ is a lot of fun. It creates a joy that cannot be described in a making a business sale, having a lot of friends or many other issues. I know this from experience.

Do you hate america because you met a mean american?
Do you hate a football team because you met a mean fan?
Do you hate college because you met a mean prof?

Why so serious?

Posted by: Matt at September 29, 2008 9:34 PM

Ooh, late to a good discussion on a crappy movie. Rats.

All this talk about how certain members of the Christian set will flock to anything Christian-themed, regardless of whether it's actually any good, reminds me of my mom getting all misty at how beautiful The Passion of the Christ was. Ugh, good grief. She's one of "those" Christians--what the Church says goes, no matter what.

I love hearing from all of you Christians who think for themselves. Kind of fancy myself an agnostic in that yeah, there may well be a benevolent big guy upstairs and that's cool; I just don't really think about it often. I just try to live by the good ol' golden rule. However, I have friends who are Christian, and I can see that the experience of going to church every week and connecting with the rituals and the people really gives people something in their lives.

Ultimately, I guess I'm curious about what brings people to seek this spiritual path. Is it the sacred ritual and reflection? The spirit of community and fellowship? Does this differ from church to church? For my Catholic mom, it seems to be the former, while my Protestant dad, the latter.

Am I being too analytical or clinical-sounding by asking this? I don't mean to; I have complete respect for folks' beliefs, along with the curiousity.

By the way, lordhelmet, is Sofia bringing drinks for the whole MurderMaid? 'Cause that would be awesome. You rock, Sofia!

Posted by: meaux at September 29, 2008 9:44 PM

It's unclear whether most people that have commented on this post have actually seen this movie, but I'm assuming not. As a person who has actually seen it and knows a little about the background of the film, I would like to point out that this is not, in fact, a typical high budget hollywood film. The actors and actresses are essentially Christain volunteers- thus the noticable discrepancy in some of the quality of acting when compared to your usual hollywood romantic movie. This movie was NOT produced purely for entertainment but also to send a message, and at this, I think the movie was an absolute success. Not to mention how vitally our society needs this message- in a time when divorce runs rampant, ruining family and lives of so many people. The entire concept of marraige has become horrendously distorted in the last several decades and this movie provided a wonderful reminder of how marraige should really be regarded and approached.

The message aside, as somewhat of a movie buff, I will be the first to admit that some of the acting was pretty bad compared to most movies that hit theaters today. However, I thought Kirk Cameron was pretty decent and the woman that played is wife was okay. Quite frankly, some of the other supporting acting was pretty bad. But like I said before, money was not poured into this movie as it is with most movies today, and that should most definitely be taken into consideration. Continuing with my honesty I thought the plot was pretty good.

But lets not kid ourselves, entertainment was not the primary aim in the production of this film. The movie was created to send a message that DESPERATEY needs to be shared. THAT is why so many Christians ...or how did you put it? oh right "Christards" go see it.

Oh by the way nice term you coined there Phillip. You don't define what Christians you're talking about and you don't provide any examples of what they do that is so awful besides supporting this movie and putting on plays about demons. You are not adding to the dialogue, you're simly name calling like a middle school bully on a playgroud.

Some Christians may not express their beliefs well or have a firm understanding themselves.. Just like some peole are voting for a particular party in the upcoming election and really don't have a clue about most of the political issues. Chrisitans are people and as people we are not perfect, nor do we claim to be. I don't know if you are trying to get more people to to read your reviews by being offensive. If thats the case- well you might have succeeded.. however I wouldn't know the first thing about this movie if I simply read your review, so you might want to work on that.

Posted by: Jucka at September 29, 2008 10:09 PM

Phil, buddy, I think you hate Jesus. I'm just sayin'. In all seriousness, a couple of my religious friends saw this and said it was pretty decent. These are friends who watched Arrested Development with me (WHEN IT WAS ACTUALLY ON, all you bandwagon fans out there!!!!) so I trust their judgment. They did say the acting was fairly craptastic, but that our man Kirk did alright. Plus, he's hot. I am a married lady who is spiritual but not necessarily actively religious. But I completely agree with the whole "marriage is work" concept, and think it is pretty cool that somebody tried to tackle that concept in film. My friends said that the nice thing about the movie was that it addresses how a marriage can still be made to work after all the "in love" feelings have gone, and how that's okay when (not if) they do. I can speak for myself and my husband when I say that sure, we have romantic moments in our marriage, but after about five years, you sure as shyte aren't gazing into each other's eyes every evening and trying to impress one another. You learn some bad and annoying things about your man (or woman), and the perfect image you had of them initially disappears. But you work with what you have. You put your hubs first and trust him to do the same and you keep trucking along together. Sure the butterflies are gone, but you have something that's much better and more real than that. So I think I'm going to see this film, because even if I don't like the churchy thing, I like the message it sends about love. And by the way, I'm saying all this as someone who was on the brink of divorce about a year ago (My husband and I decided to 'buck up' and make it work and we did. He is more religious than I am, so I think that was a big part of it for him, but for me, it was just hard work and determination).

Posted by: do you hate jesus, philliam? at September 29, 2008 10:31 PM

This is going to go on for awhile, so get comfortable.

I'm a believer. I believe in good and evil. I believe in right and wrong, sin and salvation, heaven and hell, God and Satan, all that. I believe Jesus is my savior.

That all said: I also like to drink beer and laugh, go see movies like "Burn After Reading," which I did today and which hardly espouse Christian principles (though the Catholic News Service reviewer, of all people, seemed to like it a lot), I let a "fuck" or two slip now and then, and God knows, I loves me some good hard sex.

Plus I come here every day.

So what does that say about me? Does that make me a bad Christian? I go to church most every Sunday, I believe in what I hear, I give money to the church and the United Way, I try to follow the golden rule and the commandments (though maybe not all of them at the same time), I love my wife, we've been married 26 years, we're best friends. We raised a beautiful, smart, talented and God-fearing daughter who's in grad school. I pay my bills on time and my taxes when I have to. I try to be tolerant and respectful of other human beings, and I think I mostly succeed.

I'm a pretty lucky guy, and a pretty happy guy, overall. I'm guessing I'm a lot like most people (Christian and non-Christian, actually), I live a quiet, ordinary life.

And granted that doesn't exactly make for a lot of dramatic tension but ... how come I'm never represented in movies or most TV shows? (We'll get to "Seventh Heaven" in a minute.)

I don't mean I need to see a movie built around a happy couple's quiet, ordinary life. But why is it that virtually every Christian in the visual media is a humorless blowhard, or a creepy pervert, or a two-faced hypocrite, or ... you get the idea. Why aren't we depicted as just regular folks? Why can't we be the best friend who likes to go out and have a good time, but doesn't get smashed and, when the opportunity is presented to pick up a stranger, chooses to go home to her/his husband/wife instead?

This one REALLY annoys me: I don't think there's ever been a laugh line in any movie ever made about the life of Jesus and the people surrounding him (with the exception, of course, of "Life of Brian," which was, of course, denounced as blasphemous in its day). Think about it: Jesus was a carpenter or a stonemason, depending on who you believe, and he hung around with a bunch of fishermen (not to mention tax collectors and lepers and harlots). I cannot imagine these guys didn't stink to high heaven, belch and fart, cuss a lot in Aramaic (you think they got a hook in the thumb they yelled, "By golly, that really hurts there!"?), probably tried to nail whatever women they could, and at the end of the day sit around the fire swapping stories and laughing.

Ever seen them depicted that way?

Course not. It's a Serious Story, so everybody has to be Way Damn Serious. No realism allowed, and if you tried to show Jesus and the disciples as real, albeit special, people instead of saints, you'd get roasted by the very people who have the most to gain by being seen as real people.

(God, this makes my head explode.)

Same with modern Christians and TV/movies about them.

I mentioned "Seventh Heaven" before, and that's perhaps the one most recent exception. As lame as the show was, and I rarely watched it unless I was ogling Mackenzie Rosman (yeah, I like 'em young, what about it?), at least these people occasionally showed a mild sense of humor, tried to do the right thing in the right way most of the time, and of course with all the kids it was implicit that the pastor and his wife had plenty of sex. Plus for awhile it had one of Esquire's Sexiest Women Alive.

It's sorry, however, that this is the best thing I can point to to say "This best represents me."

The irony is, there's a huge audience of Christians who are so hungry to see their lives and themselves depicted fairly on screen that they'll make huge hits out of treacle like "Fireproof" and "Touched by an Angel." What if they were given really GOOD stuff to watch?

Gold, my friends. Pure gold.

Posted by: bucdaddy at September 29, 2008 11:21 PM

'Christards'. How proud your parents must be of their son. Clever writing there Phil.

Just today my Mom said I was the coolest kid in school!
-PS

Posted by: Matt at September 30, 2008 12:10 AM

I wore a little gladiator outfit and I got to stick him with a lil' spear when we has hanging on the cross.

Posted by: Optimus Rhyme at September 29, 2008 9:29 AM

That explains SO much...my heart aches for you, it really does.

Posted by: Che Grovera at September 30, 2008 1:29 AM

lordhelmet, tt_marie (I still think of titty_marie!), bucdaddy...I want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart. If I could reach you, I'd give you a fierce hug. And to any of you other commenters that were on the same line of thought.

I used to be a pagan. I grew up Roman Catholic, and learned to hate the church. I hated the hypocrisy, the corruption, the "Sunday worshiper". It was all ridiculous to me, so I left. I never found what I was searching for, however. Now, 20 years after leaving the faith, I had it come back to me. My special lady, in fact, reintroduced it to me, and I found that it was still as vibrant as ever, merely misguided and misinformed and directionless. I am no longer a denomination...I can never go back to that. But I can proudly say I am Christian again, and feel the joy and hope that I was missing for so long.

However, I also feel the pain of Christian representation in the wide world. Christians are misunderstood because although 90% of Christianity is quietly, tirelessly living their lives in hope and love, guiding others and themselves through their lives...the other 10% are screaming into mikes and newspapers and TV's about their personal pet peeves, their socalled causes that they have wrapped up in their faith. It is these that I personally would dub the Christards...the ones who seek to use their faith not like the empowering inner force that it is, but as a bludgeon to batter their way through life and everybody else's beliefs. It is these people who incite such knee-jerk reactions, who caused me to lose my faith for two decades, and who sustain the stereotype of the Christard...their own private army.

Thank you for once again showing me how wrong I used to be, and that others feel as I now do. Thank you for not giving in to the stereotype, of being open-minded and tolerant, as so many have shown they cannot. Thank you for your inspiration.

bucdaddy...although a year ago, I would have argued with you that there's far too much Christian depictions on the small and large screens, I have seen that the majority of what is there is exactly as you described. What happened to the quiet guy who went to church on Sunday, who respected his friends and helped them when he could, and yet lived his own life as a real person?

Posted by: Shadows of Dakaron at September 30, 2008 1:31 AM

If you want to watch a film that embodies the real Christian values of tolerance, kindness, community, forgiveness, love and grace, then I recommend Chocolat.

That is all.

Posted by: bibliophile at September 29, 2008 12:14 PM

Decent movie, but a little too precious for my tastes. If you want to see a genuine demonstration of Christian love and grace, watch Lars and the Real Girl. That's what it's all about, folks. So obvious, yet so foreign. Just THINKING about that movie brings up heaving sobs over our collective -- and my personal -- inability to be humane when it matters.

Posted by: Che Grovera at September 30, 2008 1:40 AM

One last ramble and I'm calling it a night (and for those of you who track such minutiae, I'm in the Canadian Pacific time zone this week so it's not as late for me as it would be if I were home). bucdaddy, I reconciled my participation in the religion-free zone that is Pajiba a long time ago. Liberal intellectual hostility toward God is a longstanding Renaissance tradition that continues to thrive in the alleged post-modern era. Whatever. I come here to alternately think and not-think as it suits my fancy. If you wanna swing your club through the noxious Evangelicals and take a divot out of Jesus then I'll quietly slip into not-think mode and pretend that you weren't a douchetard for just a moment -- that way we're even and I didn't have to say a word.

Posted by: Che Grovera at September 30, 2008 2:11 AM

SoD, bucdaddy, guys, you're my kind of guys. (How go the standing Tuesday appointments with Knife Pile von Beaverplatz, bucdaddy?) Meaux, I don't think Sofia's buying drinks for the whole Murdering Maid crew - she hasn't confirmed the movie night, I think she's kinda disappointed I'm not underage. Oh well. Hey Che, where in the west are ya?

Posted by: lordhelmet at September 30, 2008 2:36 AM

Sofia, would you believe I'm an underage boy?

No?

Ah well.

bucdaddy, have you read Lamb by Christopher Moore? Sounds like exactly the sort of un-serious bible story you're looking for (and it warmed my cold little heart back toward the notion of Christianity a tad). Hasn't been made into a movie, though, knock on wood.

Damn, I need to see Lars and the Real Girl--thanks for the reminder, Che!

Posted by: meaux at September 30, 2008 6:37 AM

lordhelmet, I always buy the drinks.

And the reason I like hanging out with underage boys is that I, like Borat's sister, like to taunt them. "You can't have this, you can't have this!" Except I taunt them about alcohol, not... you know...

meaux, I know you're not an underage boy. Your awesome glasses gave you away.

Posted by: Sofía at September 30, 2008 9:34 AM

Shadows, Che, meaux, lordhelmet and everyone else who is making this a most interesting conversation (maybe you really CAN talk politics and religion with company?):

Thanks.

I'll try to look into "Lars."

Meanwhile, here's a billion-dollar idea I came up with for an aspiring novelist or screenwriter: A Christian homicide detective. Doesn't have to be preachy, just has to be a guy who isn't a skirt-chasing lush, and who tries to maintain (and often questions, and still confirms) his faith in the face of the brutality he sees and the attitudes of the people around him, who occasionally prays for guidance or maybe consults a priest or preacher, who has to reconcile his faith with carrying and, occasionally, using a gun.

Seems like plenty of opportunity there for dramatic tension.

And the easy part: Create really good plots, not lame formula hack thrillers. (Not to put any pressure on you, or anything ...)

For that matter, why not a devout Jew or a devout Muslim in a similar situation? How would a Muslim cop pursue hot leads and still pray five times a day? How would a Jew chase hot leads and still observe the Sabbath? Kind of like "Monk" only with religious tics rather than OCD.

That's just one idea I came up with after thinking about it for an hour. How come I can do that and H-wood can't?

Helmet: AKPvB's sweet ... in all the right places *wink*

Posted by: bucdaddy at September 30, 2008 9:38 AM

bucdaddy, you should check out Sleeper Cell. Pretty interesting look at how the main character, FBI undercover agent Darwyn Al-Sayeed, balances his devout Islamic faith while infiltrating an LA cell that twists Islam into acts of terror.

Posted by: Weck at September 30, 2008 10:21 AM

lordhelmet:

I'm in downtown Vancouver all week at a conference. Owing to the limitations of communicating via Pajiba post, I thought myself out of trying to link up with you (remembering too from the Google map that you were on what seemed to me like the outskirts of this fair metropolis). My evenings here are generally my own (i.e., no set plans yet), except I do have a date with the television on Thursday evening for our country's vice-presidential debate.

bucdaddy:
You are rapidly becoming one of my favorite Pajibans (your bawdiness notwithstanding, although that's clearly directed elsewhere). I'm still inordinately impressed over your defense of Moby Dick; I don't run into very many people who see the humor in Melville the way you and I do. Also, I realize I was rather sloppy with my pronouns in last night's post -- I hope you understood that I wasn't directing the bulk of the comment at you (in spite of calling you out by name initially). It started as a response to you and morphed into a general rant, and upon rereading it I saw a window for misunderstanding. Mea culpa.

Posted by: Che Grovera at September 30, 2008 10:29 AM

An actual discussion about religion that didn't digress into name calling and insult slinging... I now officially love you people =)

Posted by: melon at September 30, 2008 11:23 AM

Wow. Sitting back and looking at this has been really interesting.

I grew up Catholic myself (or, as I often joke, I'm a "recovering Catholic", or "I used to be Catholic, but I got better"), but, like many here, grew away from the church due to the lack of Christian behavior by its most vocal of constituents (well, that and the fact that I can't get behind the idea of a giant bearded fellow watching every move I make, and that nobody seems able to agree on whether to follow the bible in spirit or to the letter or at all... well, there are a lot of reasons, actually). Particularly vexing to me was that so many people are there out of habit rather than out of faith, and that everyone would turn around and shake the hand of their fellow parish members and then go home and gossip about them. I do miss certain aspects; until the gossiping started, everybody came together as friends, and it was nice.

What I am here to say right now, however, is thank you. I often forget somehow that adherents to a faith are individual human beings, and can't all be lumped into a group, such as "nut jobs" (generally only with religion rather than anything else... I wonder why that is? Why I think of other "groups" as individuals, but not religious groups? Or, really, just Christians, because even in the case of Judaism and Islam I look at individuals rather than groups. Maybe because people don't often discuss their religious proclivities, precisely because of this kind of attitude, so I don't even know who I know that's Christian).

I won't be going back to the church, or any other, for myriad reasons of my own, but thank you all for reminding me that not everyone who identifies as Christian or goes to church is a stereotype.

Posted by: Anna "Knife Pile" von Beaverplatz at September 30, 2008 11:43 AM

Che, you're right, I'm kinda far from downtown, so I'll just wave at departing aircraft and hope you feel my warm Canadian greeting. Welcome to Vancouver, try see some sights as it truly is a beautiful city, and (dirty secret) stay the hell outta the Downtown Eastside (anywhere east of Hastings & Granville). Come back for the Olympics though, y'hear?

Anna, it's amazing how many sane people of faith there are, forced to live undercover because of all the high-profile wackjobs claiming to represent them or acting as their faith/denomination's authority figure. My denomination/ethnic group's background (Mennonite) includes persecution, misunderstandings, accusations of unpatriotism (sp?) as well as hard working, industrious, behaviour, clean living, and a strong emphasis on humanitarian aid and disaster relief - I can easily relate to and support those priorities, and after having done time in a Pentecostal church I can say I much prefer a church that doesn't fall into the "charismaniac" group. My ex-girlfriend wanted me to convert to Orthodox, which turned into a deal-breaker - even within the faith there can be interdenominational conflict/insanity that hurts what should otherwise be a very positive image. Just sayin' that if ever you feel curious enough to try something new, there's probably a sane place for you to see a different perspective/behaviour.

Now. This is Pajiba. At YVR it's sunny and 15C. It is Tuesday, so that means...Beaverplatz & bucdaddy, you're up!

Posted by: lordhelmet at September 30, 2008 12:07 PM

That is very sweet and kind, Anna. I'm touched by your kind words.

Wanna go back to my place for some drinks and resistance-numbing drugs? We could look into violating some cardinal sins...

Posted by: Shadows of Dakaron at September 30, 2008 12:10 PM

Well, you know how I love the roofies, SoD (especially from you), but today is Tuesday... it's bucdaddy's day!
Tomorrow, however, is all about you... *wink wink nudge nudge ifyaknowwhattimean*

Posted by: Anna "Knife Pile" von Beaverplatz at September 30, 2008 2:14 PM

i have been lurking around here for about two years but rarely feel any kind of compulsion to comment-all of you are clever/funny/insighful enough i don't want to be one of those "I totally agree!" or "good one!" time wasters. But I'm coming off my little spot on the wall to count myself as one of the Pajiba loving, arrested development watching (yes, while it was on the air), obama voting, God-fearing good little Christian girls. I too get frustrated with the loony right wing extremists that make us all look like a bunch of hateful, narrow-minded idiots but I promise you, those kind of folks are more exception then rule. In a world where a major Hollywood studio greenlights Beverly Hill Chihuahua I guess I'm scratching my head that Christians making a bad but not even the worst ever movie to try to make staying married seem like a good idea is even on the radar screen of a site like this. I know this kind of religious fervor is easy to pick on and don't get me wrong, religious fervor can give us Fred Phelps. But for every guy protesting at a gay funeral, there is another Christian out there just trying to live a life of quiet faith.

Posted by: katie at September 30, 2008 2:48 PM

Welcome to the loving flock that is the delurked, katie. Would you like a roofie colada, since my comatose love has spurned me for another?

Posted by: Shadows of Dakaron at September 30, 2008 2:56 PM

Oh, you religious types and your wild sex antics. Yeesh. Typical.

(Seriously, guys, where do I sign up?!!)

Bucdaddy, love the idea. In the vein of Christian detective books, you may also want to check out the Father Blackie Ryan books by priest/author Andrew Greeley. I haven't read his stuff in a while, but from what I recall, they're pretty good stories written in the voice of an intelligent (and relatively liberal-minded) mystery-solving priest.

Posted by: meaux at September 30, 2008 3:15 PM

Everyone please stop talking about this - this SHIT - and go see who DIDN'T make the Top 10 Worst Directors list! (Hint: It wasn't Michael Bay!!)

Thank you sweet Jesus!

Love, Pyler Terry

Posted by: Tyler Perry at September 30, 2008 3:18 PM

Oops, got so caught up seducing womyns that forgot to comment...

That is a brilliant idea, bucdaddy. Not just as a Christian show, but as a great show on its own, if done well...a la Monk.

meaux...the line to sign up starts at my bedroom door. Julie has all the necessary release forms.

Posted by: Shadows of Dakaron at September 30, 2008 3:19 PM

... and go see who DIDN'T make the Top 10 Worst Directors list!...

FUCK!!! Someone goofed!

Posted by: Shadows of Dakaron at September 30, 2008 3:21 PM

a roofie colada eh? you know that they say about nice christian girls at the party when the drugs come out? they put their clothes on and go home.

Posted by: katie at September 30, 2008 3:40 PM

since my comatose love has spurned me for another?

There's no spurning, darling.... I just figured you wouldn't want bucdaddy's sloppy seconds (well, 5ths, really).

Just leave Wednesday open for me, sugar, willya? I roofie'd my own colada for you and everything!

Posted by: Anna "Knife Pile" von Beaverplatz at September 30, 2008 3:41 PM

I hate this kind of argument -- I hated it when I was religious and I hate it now. It's an utterly stacked-deck argument. Reminds me of a story I read where the climactic line is something about how "Although he seems a rake, he must be a Christian deep down, because only someone with Jesus in their heart could put that much passion and feeling into their violin solo!" (So sad day for all you Shinto violists -- you are obviously HOLLOW MISERABLE SHELLS.)

Depending on how you come at it the statement is either patently untrue or downright unproveable -- in any case it isn't an argument and I wish people would QUIT trotting it out as though it were a winning one.

Posted by: mac at September 30, 2008 5:06 PM

Er yes. And that was directed toward the film and not the posters.

Course not. It's a Serious Story, so everybody has to be Way Damn Serious.
bucdaddy, I did see a TV movie once with Jesus and Judas rolling around on he ground boyishly wrestling, before it All Went Wrong. I am not going to tell you what I took away from that.

Seconding the Lamb by Christopher Moore recommendation. I cried. Mostly with laughter.

Posted by: Mac at September 30, 2008 5:22 PM

Drat those HTML tags!!

Posted by: Mac at September 30, 2008 5:24 PM

Mac: Huh?

Meaux, It's been a while since I've seen them but I think there was a line of Father Brown mysteries too, some of which may have been turned into TV shows.

AKPvB,

Thanks! That'll get you an extra five minutes. And ...

Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

(up for air)

Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

(up for air ...)

Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ...

(yes!)

Thanks for the beer, darlin'. Same time next week?

Posted by: bucdaddy at September 30, 2008 5:26 PM

Before I mangled my tags, all I was saying was that there did exist at one point a fairly lighthearted version of "The Greatest Story Ever Told," at least for the first 20 minutes. As opposed to the nonstop seriousness of most portrayals. They were pals. I think. Never mind, just get that Christopher Moore book, he's very talented. *blush*

Posted by: Mac at September 30, 2008 6:10 PM

Che, We're cool, you fuzzy blue monster you.

Posted by: bucdaddy at September 30, 2008 9:37 PM

Good deal, bucdaddy, you...paternal pirate.

I love this thread...so I can't let it go. But I have to let it go. Just not yet.

LordHelmet:
Castigate me for the capitalization if you must, but it just looks better to my eye that way. I know what's good for you. Anyhow, I haven't wandered into the area you describe as Downtown Eastside yet but I do know that I've been panhandled at least twice every time I've left the hotel (on West Hastings at Thurlow). Fortunately they'll settle for cigarettes and small talk, so I have plenty of currency.

All:
I have no idea how many -- if any -- people I may have cajoled into seeing Lars and the Real Girl (the cockroach theory suggests that there may be dozens). I feel a small disclaimer is in order, though. There is nothing overtly Christian about this movie. Nothing. Which is what makes it so great. Everyone just behaves the way any Christian should -- and it is the most unnerving thing you will ever see on film. I can't recommend it highly enough.

Posted by: Che Grovera at October 1, 2008 12:15 AM

Che, you didn't cajole me into it. But, that's only because I already saw it. I liked it, and I will back you up on the disclaimer- it espouses Christian values without preaching the bible at you. It is a really sweet movie.

Posted by: "Sybil" "Knife Pile" von Beaverplatz at October 1, 2008 9:13 AM

Phil, you are amazing. You are a scarey hater and made of the same stuff as Nazis, Klansmen, and other haters. Somehow, each of you believes your hatred is just because your TARGET is deserving. THEY brought this on themselves. Do you believe because you blanket your hate in a movie review you are not sick? Clearly, these reviews are hate propaganda aimed at Christians. Heil Phillip!
Fireproof was not about Christians who preach at Gay Pride Parades or women entering abortion clinics (even their message isn't as savage as yours is), but about (GASP) family values.
Let's conduct a poll: How many kids of divorce wish their parents were still married?? Next, how many kids are living below poverty level because of divorce? How many gang members are products of a stable, loving, 2 parent marriage? However, you did not address even the social value of the theme of Fireproof because you are so infuriated by "Christards". I agree with Jucka and TT marie, the bottom line is you are a Christ hater and that includes people of the cross.
I have been a public school teacher for many years; I have always stressed tolerance and respect. I resent any message of hate toward any group. Additionally, your use of the word "tard" is way beyond unacceptable in my classroom.
What do you suggest to address the Christian problem, Phil? Burn C,S. Lewis's books, and of course, the Bible, blacklist the movies and movie makers who send a Christian message to the audience? Then you could lynch a few of 'em. You know, make an example. Why not just build some showers and great big ovens? We need a solution to the Christard problem, right Phil. How dare they make/watch a movie that glorifies Christ and honors family. This can't be tolerated for the good of all. It starts with people like you, Phil.

Heil Phillip. I like that.
-PS

Posted by: Grandma at October 4, 2008 11:59 AM

Yes, but Nazis and Klansmen are emphatically Christian. I'm just saying the analogy gets a little wonky.

Posted by: Jay at October 4, 2008 12:42 PM

Emphatically? Hitler followed the occult spiritually. Read a couple of biographies or Mein Kampf and learn about Hitler's Satanic motives. Are you stereotyping-all Germans are Christians? Please. In fact, there is a strong possibility he was part Jewish by birth. Weird, hum. His step father beat him constantly which is probably why he was nuts. Hum.. let's think about social order and the 2 parent family.
The Klan? Do you think they are Christians because they burn CROSSES? Please again. Jesus said regarding his followers, "You'll know them by their fruit." hum...
Crazy is crazy, and hate is hate, no matter what label it hides behind or cause it defends. Just look at the fruit and you know the (wo)man.

Posted by: Grandma at October 4, 2008 3:44 PM

Oh, I get it!!!! You are one of those assholes that beats the hell out of women aren't you?????

Posted by: jadelyn's granny at February 9, 2009 3:44 PM

Are you gay? You sound gay in your post. Only someone that is sexually unfulfilled could be as angry as you Phillip Stephens. Why do you go to Christian based movies if you hate them? Isn't it a waste of your time? Your anger toward Christians and Christ only proves that there is something for you to be afraid of. Maybe it's your lifestyle. You should should get your life right before it is too late.

Posted by: juju at February 12, 2009 9:24 PM