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Balls Out

By Brian Prisco | Posted Under Film Reviews | Comments (48)



pete-rose1.jpg

This documentary is screening as part of the All Sports LA Film Festival and will be screening this Saturday. Information can be found on the website. In the interest of full disclosure, I was afforded press passes to attend this screening.

These days, Pete Rose looks like a Reno televangelist. Decked out in a striped dress shirt with “Hit King” embroidered on the collar (a design which he owns in several different color variations), unnaturally darkened hair, spangled boots, and a flashy gold watch, Rose and that famous gap-toothed grin weeps at adulation and preaches the gospel of baseball with fiery bluntness. He is not here to preach a loving and embracing sport but that of damnation and hellfire. Like a scarred and weathered Fred Flinstone, Rose is doing everything he can in his waning days, beseeching all who will listen to accept him into the hallowed gates of the Baseball Hall of Fame. And baseball refuses to listen, having denied his application for reinstatement until the cock crowed. Rose broke more Major League Baseball records than Maguire, Bonds, and Giambi broke blood vessels popping human growth hormones. Or Sammy Sosa did corked bats. Or like teamsters should have broken Jim Gray’s legs after ambushing Rose during his one moment of acceptance back in 1999. Charlie Hustle deserves his time to shine. You need look no further than 4192: The Crowning of the Hit King, which is less documentary and more a detailed pro-Rose propaganda infomercial, to see why. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Pete Rose is inarguably one of the toughest workhorses ever to don a jersey, and the fact that baseball continues to hold up the ban and besmirch his legacy is about as laughable as “Two and Half Men” isn’t.

4192 isn’t some sort of dyslexic ode to Christopher Columbus. It’s the moment when Pete Rose officially broke the record for most career hits. He finished his career with 4256, which is a number unlikely to be approached by modern players, due mostly to the fact that Rose accumulated them over 24 consecutive seasons of play. Which is also a record. He was the last player/manager ever to grace the field of baseball, finishing off his career where he started with the Cincinnati Reds. He is the winningest player EVER, in any sport, having participated in 1972 winning games. Like he breaks it down in the movie, imagine a player playing for 19 years and winning 100 games a season — which only one team has actually done ONCE in the past decade, the Yankees — and that player would still be 72 wins short. Rose accumulated three World Series victories, numerous batting awards, was voted Sportsman of the Year a bunch times, Sportsman of the DECADE for the 1970s. I mean, what’s the only thing missing? Oh, right. A plaque in the Baseball Hall of Fame. I think Cooperstown’s even got the space allotted for it; they’re just waiting for the MLB to pull their fucking heads out of their asses.

Rose’s career was of course marred by controversy. Allegations were leveled at him about using a corked bat — you know, the same technique that Sosa used to break records — even though it’s been scientifically proven by the guys of “Mythbusters” (OK, its not science but fuck you) that corked bats don’t do shit. He was suspended for shoving an umpire during an argument. He admitted to using amphetamines during games and for weight loss. And most famously, he was banned from baseball for life by the William fucking Henry Harrison of Baseball Commissioners, A. Bartlett Giamatti, during his brief tenure for gambling on baseball.

Yes. Pete Rose gambled on baseball. He has openly admitted this fact. On his own team in fact. To win. Sure, as a player-manager, he was in a position to influence his team’s ability to win. BECAUSE THAT’S HIS FUCKING JOB. He’s supposed to win the goddamn game. So sure, maybe it’s a little shady that he gambled. But this is supposedly the most unforgivable mar against baseball?

Sports are terrible these days. Players are accused of gambling, attempted murders, dogfighting, chemical enhancement, and actual murders. And that’s just the Baltimore Ravens. Okay, it’s the Eagles, fuck you. The only records broken in baseball lately have been done by guys juicing like an overworked smoothie attendant. Where are the heroes in baseball? You’re telling me we’re supposed to root for Curt Schilling, Derek Jeter, A-Rod, Manny Ramirez? You’re out of your fucking mind. Pete Rose wasn’t one of the talented players. He was an animal, hitting the ball and getting on base, and playing like his kids were tied up in a dynamite shack, and if he didn’t win, KA-BOOM. He earned the nickname Charlie Hustle because he used to sprint to first on a walk. He was famous for sliding headfirst into the bags — whether he needed to or not. Even more famous, and probably the reason I love Rose the most, is during the All-Star Game when he came barreling into home to lay out catcher Ray Fosse. Fosse didn’t even have the ball. Rose separated Fosse’s shoulder and scored the winning run. Why I love Rose is that he checked to make sure Fosse was okay, but his response to the situation was, “If you see me coming, and you don’t have the ball, get the hell out of the way.”

Major League Baseball wants an apology before they’ll let Rose into the Hall of Fame. Otherwise, he’s banned for life. Where he joins Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays, who were also banned for working as casino greeters. Of course, they were reinstated. Oh, and the owner he used to manage under, Marge Schott, who was banned from baseball for making anti-semitic and homophobic slurs. Of course, Marge was later reinstated. Because gambling on your own team to win is way worse than hate speech.

Pete Rose might be a thug (also famous for leveling a second-baseman with an elbow to the face) and definitely a gambler, and more than likely a pill-popper. But he’s also a phenomenal player. He turned teams around, notably the Philadelphia Phillies of the early ’80s. He’s also a bit of a whiner. He complained about having his consecutive hitting streak broken by Gene Garber when the pitcher struck him out in the 9th, which sounded like sour grapes. He’s definitely lied about the gambling, and he might be an asshole. But you can’t take away his decades worth of accomplishments because of one fucking mistake. Sean Penn repeatedly beat Robin Wright Penn, and we gave him an Oscar. So, forget all that other shit because Pete Rose is a fucking hell of a ball player.

And that’s what 4192 is about. It doesn’t acknowledge or address the gambling or drug use or the corked bats or any of that jazz. It’s simply about Rose’s legendary accomplishments. It’s hilarious to sit down and listen to Rose wax about his history. Some of the stories are gut-busting. And that’s most of the documentary — Rose himself, with appearances by a few other players like Mike Schmidt and Tony Perez, as well as a strange cameo kind of narrative by J.K. Simmons. I’m not sure if it was like the Chevy Chase roast — nobody came — or because the filmmakers were working on a limited budget and couldn’t get more interviews. Couple that with the complete rug-brushing of the controversy, and it comes off as a little more than a shoddy infomercial by a huckster preacher selling snake oil. But in actuality, I kind of like that about 4192. It’s just about the fucking baseball and how great Rose is, and how ridiculous it is that he’s not in the Hall of Fame. It’s got tons of wonderful moments, particularly when Rose hit the 4000th hit and ended up on first base with his longtime pal Tony Perez, now playing for the other team.

By the way, that 4191 record, set by the only other player to date to have broken 4000 hits? That would be none other than Ty Cobb, inarguably one of the finest players of baseball and another major record holder. Cobb was also an unapologetic racist who climbed into the stands during a game to beat the hell out of a jeering fan, crippled with no hands. Cobb repeatedly got into fights with black greensmen, bus operators, elevator operators, and sometimes their wives, who he used to choke if they got involved. Cobb also was accused of betting, but the allegations went away. And he once stabbed a black guy, who tried to break up a fight between Cobb and some of the hired help. That Ty Cobb. The first player voted into the Cooperstown Hall of Fame on practically every ballot.

Drop the fucking ban, you hypocrites.









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Comments

Dude... it's McGwire, not Maguire.

Posted by: BonerGhost at July 9, 2010 11:51 AM

One mistake? C'mon, man. Rose gambled on baseball for years and he lied about it when given the chance to come clean. He didn't do that shit by accident and we're not talking about a $2 March Madness office pool. He made bets with bookies and used his inside knowledge of the Reds to improve his odds. I really couldn't give a damn whether or not he gets into Cooperstown (It's only baseball, and who gives a shit about baseball?) but at least acknowledge the reality of what we he did.

Posted by: Tracer Bullet at July 9, 2010 11:53 AM

Oh, Prisco. I am being completely honest, non-sarcastic in every way conceivable.....Pete Rose is my fucking hero. Growing up in a town so small we still had party lines an hour away from Cincinnati during the heyday of the Big Red Machine, Pete was THE SHIT! I still have my Pete Rose #14 jersey, the first Pete Rose (maybe only, I dunno) Starting Line-up figure, my mitt, my batt, my hat, my batting helmet, the Cincinnati Enquirer with his photo and 4192 emblazoned on the front...you get the idea. Several years ago, Pete was going to be at a Little League Championship near my home. My family were all involved in a play, but I blew off rehearsal to take my then 5 year old son to see the greatest player I'd ever seen. I wore my jersey, and could barely breathe from excitement. The photo of me, Steven and Pete is a prized possession. My poor little boy had no idea why the hell Mom was OUT OF HER MIND over this old guy.

This guy approached baseball like it was a job...WHICH IT IS. He didn't apologize for the way he played, because he knew there were better looking guys who could get the press on looks alone...he had to PLAY and PLAY HARD to get noticed. And he did. To this day, when I hear "Still the Same" by Bob Seger I remember whichever network playing that at the opening of a Reds game during the last few games of the countdown to 4192. Pete Rose was the cause of the biggest argument I had with my ex....I adored him and he called him a lying cheater. Bastard's lucky he isn't at the bottom of the Ohio.

Pete deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. You have named several of the unrepentant pricks who ARE in the Hall of Fame for offenses interminably worse than Pete's. Look at what he did on the field...for the game. The man was a monster and gave every breath, every ounce of strength and pain to play a great game. He didn't whine if he had a hangnail, or get caught juicing or with hookers. He KICKED ASS ON THE FIELD. This is awful, but after A. Bartlett Giamatti banned him for life, you notice he had a heart attack and died not long after, right? Always been my contention that God is a Pete Rose fan and was PISSED. Hell, it took me years to even be able to watch Paul Giamatti without wanting to jump in a time machine and kick his old man's ass.

That was a diatribe, but, damn, really, HALL OF FAME already!!!!

Posted by: dammitjanet at July 9, 2010 11:58 AM

“Mythbusters” (OK, its not science but fuck you) that corked bats don’t do shit.

SHENANIGANS! I'M GETTING MY BROOM!

That kind of thinking is the same logic that people use to argue taking steroids doesn't make you hit the ball better.

By corking a bat, and this is especially in Pete Rose's case, you make the bat lighter. By making it lighter, it's easier to control and quicker through the zone. While I do understand the Mythbusters position that it isn't overly beneficial, they're missing the point, too.

Pitch inside on the hands? A lighter bat will help you turn on it easier and pull it down the line for a double, rather than a jam shot that results in a pop up.

Slow curve on the outside corner? A lighter bat will slow down with your hands, and allow you to use your hand strength to adjust the position of the bat, slightly enough, that you can get more of the barrel on it to flip the ball into the opposite field.

However, I appreciate the review and the perspective on such a polarizing character, Prisco. I do think a large part of why Rose hasn't been at least allowed election to the HoF is that Bud Selig hates his guts. Oh well.

Posted by: D-Day at July 9, 2010 12:03 PM

The rule prohibiting gambling on baseball games is posted at the entrance of every major league clubhouse. The punishment for doing so is a lifetime ban, and every player, manager, and coach knows it. This was a result of the many gambling scandals, culminating in the throwing of the 1919 World Series, that nearly ruined the game.

Regardless of your personal feelings about the rule, it cannot be said that Rose was unaware of the potential consequences of his actions.

Oh, and Bart Giamatti loved baseball in a literally poetic sense. While that chosen naivete might have informed his attitude towards the brazen, amoral prick that is Pete Rose, he was enforcing the rule as written.

Posted by: sansho1 at July 9, 2010 12:18 PM

I think we can all agree that Selig is the worst commissioner in major league sports. As far as Rose goes, what he did was wrong. He used knowledge that he was privy to that probably gave him an advantage when betting. However, I don't think that should keep him out of the HOF. If that does, who the hell else gets left out? Bonds? He's an unlikable steroid user, but he holds records. McGuire? Oh shut up Mark, everyone knows you used. A-Rod? He's unlikable (and I say that as a Yankees fan), but he'll hold a number of records by the time his career is done. Roger Clemens? I dislike him more than just about any major sports athlete, but he's still had an outstanding career. He's all but admitted to steroid usage and had a 10-year affair with an underge woman. What will the HOF do with him.

Face it, people. The number of genuinely good people who are star atheletes is low. Go ahead, think of baseball players with HOF stats who are likable as people. Then think of how many have that same level of stats who lie, cheat, and come across as so throughly miserable that you can't help but dislike them. Your list is very likely going to skew to the last point.

Put the man in and put the unvarnished truth there. It's there about the Black Sox scandal, Ty Cobb, and just about everyone else. Put Rose in for his achievements and let the public judge for themselves.

Posted by: Melody at July 9, 2010 12:36 PM

He's banned for life. Put him in when he's dead.

Posted by: JakesAlterEgo at July 9, 2010 12:45 PM

Your argument at the end is kind of summed up as "Hey, remember when you allowed horrible people in, but then you changed and started adhering to a higher standard for actions taken off the field? FUCK THAT NOISE, LET IN THE GUY WHO BET ON BASEBALL WHEN HE WAS IN A DIRECT POSITION TO INFLUENCE GAMES."

Prisco, I love you; you're an ass.

Posted by: JakesAlterEgo at July 9, 2010 12:49 PM

Yeah, Rose kind of fell out of favor with me as the years passed- but to all but completely ignore the stats he achieved is unrealistic and does more to tarnish the game than including him in the Hall of Fame would.

I'm not a tremendous babseball fan, but I devour every book and documentary that comes out about it. I just finished a Roger Maris bio, and the book I read before that was 'Shoeless Joe & the History of Ragtime Baseball' (I believe that was the title). And I've watched Ken Burns' 'Baseball' at least 3 times all the way through, though I'm more partial to the Maris/Mantle, 50's & 60's years in particular.

But you just don't remove a player from the history of baseball, pretending he never existed - there are many who hold and cherish that history very close, out of sheer love for the game. The man was just too colossal a figure in this history to be ignored, and it throws the entire baseball mythos out of whack to simply pretend this crucial figure of the game never even existed.

Anyone who has the slightest memory of Pete Rose could acknowledge that he genuinely loved the game and he proved it every time he stepped onto the field.

Baseball players aren't paragons of virtue; but you can still hate some sports legends without bringing anything else they've ever done into the picture. OJ Simpson is a despicable, murderous bastard, but you can't re-write history & say he didn't deserve the Heisman Trophy when just about any satistic of the time proves it just wasn't so.

I really don't know why I'm trying to make a point that Prisco has already done much better than I ever could; I, for one, am really looking forward to seeing this doc.

I also absolutely love the Tyson documentary- the man is a barely-controlled freak of nature, but it's stupid to think this changes his accomplishments in the ring for any other reason aside from what he did outside of it.

Great review.

Posted by: Bill (Formerly Bill) at July 9, 2010 12:50 PM

I'm not sure how accurate the "he only bet on his team to win" thing is--I'd always read otherwise and don't find him very believable. As to the hits record, putting yourself in the lineup when you are way past your prime in order to pad your own stats at the expense of the team isn't all that commendable to me. As for the Hall of Fame, there was probably a point where coming clean and apologizing could have gotten him in, but the incessant lying in the face of everyone knowing about his gambling will likely keep him out until his death.

Posted by: maceo at July 9, 2010 12:56 PM

Just to clarify something on the hall of fame--just because a player is not elected does not mean that they are erased from baseball existence. The museum part of the hall of fame includes everyone. For example, Roger Maris' home run record was featured even though he was never elected. Keeping Rose (or Bonds or Clemens) from election doesn't mean they are erased.

Posted by: maceo at July 9, 2010 1:02 PM

In my opinion several of you are inappropriately mixing offenses.

Ty Cobb was by all accounts a world-class asshole, but the Hall Of Fame is not a measure of personal character. If the gambling offenses you mention were definitively proven - as Pete Rose's offenses have been - then he should not be in the Hall either.

Steroids is a tricky matter and a bit more subjective, given that the letter of the law was not broken by many of the offenders, even if the spirit was.

The Hall Of Fame should reward and recognize what is done on the field and what directly affects the game - no more and no less. Pete Rose's gambling offense is a direct violation of that. Yes, he was a great player, but once you undermine the very integrity of the sport, what's the point of even playing? In my opinion there is a sacred line in competitive sports that you do not cross. Cheating of this sort is certainly over that line.

Even if he only bet on his team to win, he was in a position to influence the lineup to his advantage, and this potentially involves resting players in the games he didn't bet on thus adversely affecting those outcomes so that the games on which he wagered would have stronger odds. If you don't have a problem with that sort of poison seeping into the game at its most basic level, then we might as well just convert the MLB, the NFL, the NHL, and the NBA into professional-wrestling versions of themselves.

The rule is very simple. He broke it. There's no hypocrisy here. Show me a proven player or manager in Major League Baseball that gambled on games while in the sport that is in the Hall, and then you have hypocrisy.

If you want to make the argument that Pete Rose deserves to be in the Hall because we should generally be a more forgiving society, then I'm willing to listen to that argument. The hypocrisy argument, however, does not fly. In that respect, I would certainly prioritize lobbying for Shoeless Joe to enter the Hall above Rose.

Posted by: DarthCorleone at July 9, 2010 2:18 PM

Out of love for my dear adopted former hometown of Cincinnati, thanks for this. Cincinnatians (and dammitjanet will back me up, I am sure) know full well what kind of guy Rose is, but they love in not in spite of, but because of it.

Look, Rose makes crazy decisions and has little-to-no impulse control. Which is exactly WHY he was the kind of player he was, which is exactly WHY the Big Red Machine was so spectacular. He was a shoot-first-and-ask-questions-later kind of player, but he shot hard and shot true and that wins games. That kind of impulsiveness and ego also comes with plenty of significant character flaws.

maceo, got a link for that statement? Because I've always heard/seen/read that Rose always bet on the Reds, which (as Prisco points out) means that he'd only be giving himself an advantage by doing his job - helping the Reds win. If there was proof otherwise, I'd certainly have a harder time justifying my defense of Rose.

Having lived all over Ohio, I can safely say that Cincinnati is treated like Ohio's redheaded stepchild (despite the fact that it is an infinitely cooler town than Crybaby Cleveland). Rose and the Big Red Machine gave the city something to celebrate after their big industries dried up. They named a frigging street after him! The day Baseball forgives Rose is a day I hope to be in the Queen City - it will be glorious.

(Side note: how about them Reds this season!?!)

Posted by: Tammy at July 9, 2010 2:18 PM

You know, I totally agree and understand the concept that if any of these cheaters: Bonds, Giambi, Conseco and McGuire are going to be inducted into the HOF, then so too should Rose. That said, I take it all back. Trouble is two-fold: 1. He got caught, definitively caught. 2. If they let him in, all the others who want to gamble will use it as a crutch to do so.

As I see it, Its all bad, anyway you cork this bat.

Posted by: juiceinla at July 9, 2010 2:23 PM

Also, be careful where you swing those corked bat jokes:

http://deadspin.com/5555714/this-is-pete-roses-corked-bat

Posted by: JakesAlterEgo at July 9, 2010 3:06 PM

Tammy, we all KNOW he's a horse's-ass. We don't care. He was every tough little kid who was considered too small to play sports, too dumb to be anything, and the sort that would have been pushed into vocational school because no one thought he could do anything else but fix a car. He worked harder, pushed himself and his players to excel, both as a player and a player/manager. Did he bet on the game? He said he did. I'm not denying that. Did he bet on the Reds? If you were the player/manager, wouldn't you? Did he think he wouldn't get caught? Almost without a doubt? Did he use his position to help win his bets? Probably. NONE of this changes the way I feel about the man and his accomplishments. The fact that he has turned into a Joey Buttafuco-like character saddens me, but in my heart and memory, he is still sliding headfirst into home, bowl haircut flying, arms outstretched, a look somewhere between complete concentration and utter joy on his face.
And, Tammy, I will be with you that day in Porkopolis, because that city will explode! *sigh* as nice as the new field is, it just ain't Riverfront....

Posted by: dammitjanet at July 9, 2010 3:14 PM

I am not going to rehash Rose greatness on the field because others have clearly covered it above, but let's be clear it was GREATNESS. His discretions were as a manager, where his accomplishments are minimal. Clemens, Bonds, and McGwire tainted their legacies by "cheating" on the field. I fell that there is a difference.

I have always wondered why MLB has not done this: Induct Rose as a player only. Tommy Lasorda is in as a manger. His playing carrer sucked balls. In addition to Rose's statistics add a paragraph on the gambling issue to his plaque.

Why can't we just be honest? Are we worried what our children will learn? They will see how one of the game's finest players got himself tossed from the sport he loved because he couldn't control himself. Finally, he will continue to be banned from interaction with professional baseball since his gambling occurred during the managerial phase of the game. Seriously, I feel this is an appropriate compromise.

Posted by: swingdude at July 9, 2010 4:47 PM

Overrated Dexedrine freak. Punchy little bastard, too.

Posted by: Buddy Harrelson at July 9, 2010 6:21 PM

As far as the gambling is concerned, did he bet every game he managed for the same amount?
If not, did he manage differently when he bet on the Reds to win? That is what calls into question the integrity of the game. Not to mention that he ran up huge gambling debts to mobsters who stood to benefit from his managerial decisions if they bet on games he managed.
The man is absolute scum. Not that scum doesn't have a place in the HoF. But I don't care. I despise him so much that I want his life to mirror Tantalus, never quite getting to his goal.

Posted by: Phil at July 9, 2010 7:41 PM

If you don't know why Rose was wrong for betting on the Reds to win, you aren't savvy enough to write that essay.
You say that it was Pete's job to get the Reds in a position to win, so what harm was there? He was also in a position to make it more likely they LOST as well, and he signaled those likely losses by NOT BETTING ON THE REDS THAT DAY. Don't discount the possibility that the desperate Pete Rose would do anything to get even, to win money. Players and managers who associate with gamblers should be drummed out of baseball or any other sport.
I don't pity Pete Rose. He had it made and he f***ed it up.

Posted by: mechadave at July 9, 2010 9:01 PM

Here's something pro-Rose people always overlook. No one bets on baseball, expect chronic, dead-end gamblers. No one. With that in mind, you have to hook up with VERY shady, underworld-connected characters to do this on a continuing basis, betting large sums. Rose didn't bet $5 a pop with his next door neighbor.

Here's how these people operate: Jimmy the Weasel gets buddy-buddy with Pete, because Pete is no only such a good customer, but he's inside the organization. To gambler looking for an edge, Rose is worth his weight in gold. Of course, at this point, Pete is only betting the Reds to win, so where's the harm in that? But let's say Pete falls behind on payments. Jimmy is patient for awhile but Jimmy has people to pay also, so his largesse on behalf of the "Hit King" does have its limits. Finally, after Rose continues to lose, the Weasel pays him a visit, and announces that the Reds will lose that night's game to the Dodgers, as the Weasel has bet heavily on LA. Pete's debt is cancelled if he helps Weasel win this big pay day. What choice does he have but to go along? You want a mob enforcer pissed off at YOU? He pulls his starting pitcher and uses a raw rookie instead. (Making some excuse to the curious press about saving the vet for the next series.) The Dodgers pin the rookie's ears back, and everyone is happy. The Weasel hits a big payday, and the Reds lose a single regular season game. Big deal, right? Three weeks later, the Weasel decides he needs another big payday, so he visits the "Hit King" and announces Cincy will also lose tonight's game to the Mets. Rose is aghast - he's already settled with the Weasel, he owes him nothing. He refuses to throw the game. The Weasel then casually reminds him that he has concrete evidence which "could" find its way to the police, organized baseball, or both, that the Reds/Dodger game a few weeks back had some VERY unusual circumstances attached to it. (Or, Pete might just suffer a broken leg, the result of "tripping over a trash can in the clubhouse"...) Let's go Mets! Ready to play ball, Pete? If the Reds are having a big season, repeat the above scenario times ten in the playoffs and World Series.

Once you are into these people, you can't simply disengage. Ask Tim Donaghy. That's why there are strict rules against any kind of gambling for pro ballplayers. And Pete was well aware of these rules, as other posters pointed out, before he got involved in this stuff.

If that's not enough, consider that he called Giamatti and Dowd low-life, lying scumbags for YEARS, before finally admitting what was obvious to any sentient human all along. "Oh yeah, they were right - I DID bet on baseball." Pete did his damnedest to trash the reputation of dead man who couldn't speak for himself. Oh yeah, he's an All-American hero, because he ran to first after walks. And the fact that Michael Jackson was great dancer makes up for the fact that he molested little boys, right?

Posted by: WestHamMan at July 9, 2010 11:15 PM

And Prisco, any fucking retard who intentionally injures another player during a fucking All-Star game, as Pete Rose did, is a bush league asshole of major proportions.
Besides, Rose didn't earn the hit record. That Marge Schott was the only baseball hating owner who would have let Pete Rose manage- much less pencil his has-been ass in as fucking LEAD OFF in order to cheaply "break" the record years and years after he was not major league caliber anymore.

Posted by: mechadave at July 9, 2010 11:31 PM

jesus, prisco, you're wrong on twenty different levels.

gambling on your own team isn't right; let's say you've got twenty grand on your own team to win tonight. rob dibble has pitched each of the last two nights and needs the night off, but holy shit, the giants have first and second with no outs in the bottom of the ninth in a one-run game. guess we gotta put him in again. pop, goes the elbow, career and season over. that's okay?

the "there are other assholes in the hall, too" argument is barely worth addressing. pete rose's assholery affected games and seasons. ty cobb's didn't. it's that simple.

re: the bart giamatti / william henry harrison comment: fuck you. giamatti wasn't some dilettante. he was a credit to the game, someone who put the fan first and for whom the game's integrity was of the highest priority. his short tenure was marked not by indecision or ineffectiveness but by quality leadership and near-unanimous acclaim by both owners and players.

however - yes, a helluva player. everyone knows that. that doesn't mean he deserves a fucking plaque. he can burn in hell.

Posted by: matty blue at July 10, 2010 12:12 AM

"I'm not a tremendous baseball fan, but I devour every book and documentary that comes out about it."

I'm re-typing part of my own comment from 12:50pm yesterday, how fucked up is that?? But only because I didn't clarify that knowledgeable baseball fans are some of the most entertaining writers you're ever going to find:

mechadave, matty blue, dammitjanet, Phil, sansho1 - how can you not love reading their excellent comments?

Bonus kudos to swingdude, WestHamMan, Tammy, Darth Corleone, Melody and supercool D-Day for especially informative insights and/or arguments (please forgive all the 'bolds' and 'italics'- I just recently learned HTML and I'm totally exploiting it)

I could actually sit through an entire game if I had this crowd in my living room giving running commentary, and I'd pay for the keg and the eats!

Posted by: Bill (Formerly Bill) at July 10, 2010 11:43 AM

"imagine a player playing for 19 years and winning 100 games a season — which only one team has actually done ONCE in the past decade, the Yankees -"

I think the Mariners, Athletics, Angels, and Diamondbacks all had 100+ win seasons this decade.

Posted by: Matt K at July 10, 2010 11:51 AM

Pete Rose is a degenerate motherfucker, no doubt.

Pete Rose bet on baseball, bringing a cloud to the sunshine that pours on the game, no doubt.

Pete Rose played on amphetamines, no doubt.

So were/did a substantial portion of these guys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_Baseball_Hall_of_Fame

Look at that list. A few angels in the outfield, but a ton of low-class asses.

Baseball is a reflection of America at its best and worst. The desire to strive to win, to tower above others, to utterly destroy is something that only exists in the outer limits of the human psyche. When we elevate games to the level of war, we are expecting people to become something more than they should be. We demand that they push themselves, not just for the Roman delight of seeing men in battle, but in seeing the possibilities of ourselves. The fact is, when we ask this of others, we often ask them to cede parts of their humanity we take for granted.

We have asked them to be barbarians, to serve our desire to prove that we are better than those shitheels in Kansas City, New York, and Denver. Look at what we did? We fucking did it! Passions soar, cars are burned, windows are smashed. In the morning we wake up and chastise those around us and ourselves for getting out of control.

Imagine, if these are fans, the mind of a player.

Yes, Pete Rose should have been punished. And he was. He is punished. That punishment has now overshadowed the career, the accomplishments, that inutterable joy and pain that we took away, cathartically. This film is here to restore the balance in the universe, to remind us why this is such a big deal.

Did Pete Rose do damage to baseball? Yes, he did. Did Pete Rose do a lifetime's worth of damage to baseball? No.

Re-instate Pete. Put a little asterisk by his plaque that says, "This fucking asshole bet on baseball. He's a dick, yeah, but he fucking PLAYED. He had to wait 25 years to get the brass ring. Don't shit where you eat, kids," but re-instate him.

If we forgive Pete, we forgive us all.

Posted by: myjetski at July 10, 2010 1:22 PM

If we forgive Pete, we forgive us all.

Oh, boo fucking hoo. Do we demand hard play and home runs? Yes. Did we care that people were ridiculously sized as long as they hit balls out of the park? No.

Here's the thing. Pete Rose is not in the Hall of Fame because of actions he took as a manager. Why is that so hard to understand? The fact that he's a prick has nothing to do with it. The fact that he was placing bets with shady ass bookies on his own team got him banned.

Tell me, myjetski, when did we ask our managers to parlay the afternoon Cubs game with the 7:05 out in Anaheim? Hmm? Tell me when I asked Joe Torre to bet it all on the under in the Detroit game later?

Fuck your apologetics.

Posted by: JakesAlterEgo at July 10, 2010 4:34 PM

Hot diggity DAMN. I am definitely not a baseball fan (really, watching it on TV is one of the top ten most boring activities I can think of), but reading this review and the comments section gave me chills. The passion you guys feel for this subject and the eloquence with which it is expressed has made my jaw drop in awe.
And it makes me want to seek out this film too, my disinterest in the game itself be damned.

Posted by: Jessie at July 10, 2010 4:51 PM

myjetski, that there is some pretty bullshit. Real pretty. Shit, if you've got an expensive suit and a good head of hair, that's pretty enough to put your ass in the Senate and maybe get you re-elected a time or two. But it's still a load of complete and utter bullshit.

Posted by: Tracer Bullet at July 10, 2010 5:03 PM

Tracer Bullet: Well, shit. I tried. And that was too flowery, in retrospect. I get a little emotional over morning coffee.

JakesAlterEgo, you raise an interesting point, that it was his actions as a manager that disqualify him for hall of fame status. Shouldn't that only disqualify him from entry as a manager?

That's splitting hairs, I know, and I probably shouldn't do that. My main question is still: Is a lifetime ban deserved? From the entire industry? He didn't murder baseball.

It seems, yeah, he fucked up, so he can't play and he can't manage or coach, and he can't own or be involved in the game in any way moving forward, but why not recognize his accomplishments as a player?

Vote myjetski 2010.

Posted by: myjetski at July 10, 2010 7:21 PM

Sorry I missed this one.

Things to remember:

Rose is banned from MLB and not the HoF. The MLB and HoF are seperate and one does not hold sway over the other.

As much as loved to watch him play and used to agree that his exploits as a player should be seperate from his actions as a manager, he should be left out. I have changed on this over the years but the steroid situation changed it for me.

While there was nothing banning steriods from the game, I believe that there is a law against using these with out the clearance of a doctor. The pumped-up home run hitters and pitchers, broke the law and committed fraud against the public trust, and it is for this Rose is kept out. He tainted the public trust of the game by maiking th public as, how many others? Therefore, Rose deserved the same ban the Black Sox received and hopefully the unspoken ban the steriod boys will get.

Posted by: richmac at July 12, 2010 2:02 AM

I've always been on the fence on this one, but damn if the contingent here that absolutely CRUSHED the author of this post didn't convince me.

Uphold the lifetime ban, admit him after he's dead. His career belongs in the HoF; the man does not deserve to spend a single second of his life as a living HoF'er.

Posted by: icecreammang at July 12, 2010 4:15 PM

Wait... who on the current Eagles roster murdered someone? If you're thinking Dante Stallworth, he wasn't with Philly when he got wasted and ran over a jaywalker. We do have that piece of shit dogfighter Vick, but I can't recall any murderers.

Hyperbole? Or am I forgetting something?

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