We’re nearing the end of this little journey: The Best 20 Seasons of the Last 20 Years. With all due respect to my illustrious employer, what an absurd notion. Understandable, maybe even necessary, what with this being a site devoted to artistic criticism and all, but absurd nonetheless. No doubt some or all of you will grumble when we come to the end of the road that your favorite season of your favorite show wasn’t covered. In fact, I won’t lie. There are some exclusions about which I’d like to grumble. I won’t. It would hardly be fair. I mean, I haven’t seen it, but it’s hard to argue with puppets in space. And I really will get around to watching “Veronica Mars” one of these days. Honest. So, it is with acute awareness of the ridiculousness of this perspectivist endeavor that I would like to state, unequivocally, that I believe “Deadwood” to be the best show to have graced the small screen. Not my favorite, mind you, but the motherfucking best. And anyone who dares say differently sucks cock by choice.
Now, how can I give such distinction to “Deadwood” when the best show ever is clearly “The Wire”? (That’s right, I can hear your thoughts through the screen.) In many ways “Deadwood” and “The Wire” are opposite ends of an hourglass. The former deals with a community as it forms, the latter with a community as it disintegrates. But the devil’s in the details, and “Deadwood” goes deeper. Where “The Wire” offers us passing glimpses into the lives of disparate yet interconnected fully formed, compelling characters, “Deadwood” cracks open its characters’ chest cavities and gives us a window into the darkest reaches of their souls. Creator David Milch, scion of Shakespeare, master of the modern soliloquy, offers terrifying insight into just how fucked up we all are. But “Deadwood” doesn’t just plumb the depths of the human soul struggling to survive in a chaotic and complex environment: It does so using every tool in the artists’ arsenal, to the fullest of their potential. Writers, actors, designers and directors: Every performance of every character, every word and gesture, every hair pinned in place, every corset, every cravat, each and every rough hewn ceiling joist seems to have leapt intact from some parallel 1876 South Dakota universe and onto our TV screens. The world of the show, so foreign to modern eyes, is complete, unwavering and undeniable. From every angle, “Deadwood” is storytelling at its absolute finest.
The story goes that Milch was developing a show about city cops in Rome at the time of Nero. He took it to HBO who, thanks to the zeitgeist, already had a show about Rome in the pipeline. But they so loved the central theme he was exploring, the genesis and evolution of community in a lawless land, that they asked if he couldn’t find another setting for his story. The black hills of South Dakota at the end of the 19th century provided the perfect Petri dish. The town of Deadwood grew by 10,000 residents in the three months around the time Milch set the beginning of his story. It was a town beholden to no human cocksucker. Not only was it not under the jurisdiction of the federal government, but, had they attempted to organize, the U.S. proper would have viewed it as a threat and squashed it. Its very existence was dependent on its lawlessness. Yet humans, all irreparably broken and yearning to be whole, need structure and community. We need purpose and faith, whether it be found in God or in pussy. It doesn’t matter from which moment in time you slice a sample, these human needs, this necessity, never change.
Season One most clearly articulates this theme. We arrive in Deadwood at the dawning of a new age. The old is embodied by Wild Bill Hickock (brilliantly played by Keith Carradine) who represents the iconic West. He has mostly outlived his usefulness as a lawman and is now relegated to collecting appearance fees and acting in Wild West shows. He has come to Deadwood in search of a neverending card game and enough whisky to drink himself to sleep (and possibly to death). The new is embodied by Seth Bullock (Timothy Olyphant), co-proprietor of the camp’s hardware store and former marshal from the Montana Territories. The series opens on Bullock in his last night in Montana, sitting on a horse thief. Before he and partner Sol Starr (John Hawkes) can head out, a posse arrives, brandishing rifles and torches, and demands Bullock turn over the thief so they can put a bullet in his head. While it would seem to be six of one, half a dozen of another, Bullock insists the man be hung “under the color of law” and manages to string the fucker up before the mob can get their hands on him. As much as Bullock hates a mob, he hates even more the responsibility of containing one. Deadwood is to be his escape. Yet once there, despite his best efforts and constant protestations, he is incapable of minding his own business. He leads a search for an orphaned child, and along with Wild Bill he metes out justice to the murderer of her family. He takes on the responsibility of looking after the interests of Alma Garret (Molly Parker), whose husband was murdered on their bonanza gold claim. And when her duplicitous dad shows up to siphon off her holdings, he beats him to a bloody, motherfucking, tooth-spitting pulp. Bullock confides in his friend, “What kind of man have I become, Sol?” He responds, “Don’t know. Night ain’t fuckin’ over yet.” Bullock is aware of, if unable to control, his violent dark side. The beating he delivers Alma’s Pa is the last straw. He knows what he is capable of and that the only way to structure his rage is to don the sheriff’s star and try to channel the energy for the good of the camp. He cannot escape himself. Not even in Deadwood.
Lording over the camp is Al Swearengen (Ian McShane), proprietor of the Gem Saloon. Like Bullock, Al detests a mob, not because of his sense of justice but because of the threat it poses to his hustle. When word arrives that a family of “squareheads” (read: Swedes) was attacked by Sioux on the road out of town, Al calms his patrons, who are planning to posse up, with the promise of free booze and half-price pussy. The saloon stays full. While on the surface Al appears to be an amoral, vicious, murderous cocksucker who beats on his whores and shivs unarmed men, there is a pipsqueak voice of compassion inside him. It is the voice that tells him to keep Jewel (Geri Jewell), the leg-dragging gimp, around the place, and it keeps him from murdering his favorite whore when she steps out on him:
Al Swearengen: Don’t you think I don’t understand. I mean, what can anyone of us ever really fuckin’ hope for, huh? Except for a moment here and there with a person who doesn’t want to rob, steal or murder us? At night, it may happen. Sun-up, one person against the fuckin’ wall, the other may hop on the fuckin’ bed trusting each other enough to tell half the fucking truth. Everybody needs that. Becomes precious to ‘em. They don’t want to see it fucked with.
But above all, Al is a master tactician. He sees the whole board better than anyone in Deadwood. He knows his days as ruler of the little mining camp fiefdom are numbered, but he also understands he can shape the inevitable structure and order to his financial benefit.
The beginning of the end comes when Wild Bill is shot in the back of the head by Jack McCall. Hickock is no nameless hooplehead; he was as big a celebrity as one could be at the time. The trial of his murderer threatens to usher in the first rays of civilized light to the camp, and this Al cannot abide. He puts a stop to it, and McCall is acquitted without a breath of testimony, but Al’s efforts are futile. Around the same time McCall is splattering Hickock’s brains on the wall, smallpox comes stumbling into town. While Cy Tolliver (Powers Boothe), proprietor of the Bella Union Saloon, tries to cover up the incident by dumping the infected patron in the woods, the sickness quickly spreads through camp. Realizing the only option for survival is to pull together, the first informal meeting of influential townspeople is called at the Gem. A plan is devised to obtain vaccine and erect a sick tent on the outskirts of town. The sick tent doesn’t just offer respite for the infected, it gives those without purpose a calling. Calamity Jane (Robin Weigert), hopeless alcoholic and lover of Wild Bill, is disconsolate after his death. Caring for the sick offers her a way through her grief. The Reverend Smith (Ray McKinnon), whose preachings have fallen on deaf ears, now has a ministry. As Season One progresses and it becomes clear annexation is imminent, the structure of the community further crystallizes. But it is in this moment, facing potential devastation from disease, that the camp first coalesces around something deeper than economic necessity.
The stellar artistry of “Deadwood” is apparent in its tilt-a-whirl structure. There are so many characters orbiting each other and the town at once, it’s a wonder they don’t crash into a heap. The centrifugal force that keeps all the stories in motion is this unifying theme of community and mutual need. As Reverend Smith reminds us at Wild Bill’s funeral: “The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body.” But if this theme is the meat of the show, the rich sauce is David Milch’s genius facility with language. Fortunately, “Deadwood” provides him the perfect venue for his skill, one in which heightened, bawdy language is organic. (Anyone who suffered through “John From Cincinnati” knows how trying Milch-speak can be when it feels out of place.) Milch’s brilliance with language goes deeper than mere communication and extends to the most basic expression through sound. If you’ll permit me a bit of an indulgence, I’ll offer a story to illustrate just what the fuck I’m talking about:
Many a moon ago I was studying theater at a summer program in Oxford, and Fiona Shaw was my Shakespeare teacher. While she’s best known to American film audiences as a character actress from such gems as the Harry Potter series and Three Men and a Little Lady, us theater geeks know her as one of, if not the most, accomplished Shakespearean actress currently drawing breath. At the time, she was playing Richard in a much renowned production of Richard II in London and was commuting up to Oxford a couple of times a week to teach our class. On our first day, she was late. We sat in silence in the cold, stone basement of Balliol College (built circa 1430). Then, in one of the most surreal moments of my life thus far, Fiona exploded through the door in shorts and a tank top, dripping with sweat and let loose a guttural, “FUUUUUCK! I’m so sorry I’m late.” She kept on, mile-a-minute, “You know ‘Fuck’ is one of the greatest words in the English language. If you follow Shakespeare’s theory that vowels carry emotion and consonants carry thought then think about what that word means: fffffffff, k! That’s the thought. And Uuuuuuuuuuuuuh! That’s the emotion. Say it with me now: fffffffff uuuuuuuuh k!” And we did, the whole room bellowing: “ffffffff uuuuuuuuuuh k!” Over and over.
Every writer worth their salt gets the melody and rhythm of language in his or her bones. Some are diction nerds like me and understand the nexus of mechanics and meaning (Don’t get me started on the word “cock.” Two plosives flanking an open back rounded vowel? Perfection.), while others know it intuitively but couldn’t explain it if they tried. Milch’s genius is that he doesn’t just have a masterful grasp of the mechanics; he also is fearless in constructing intricate and ornate linguistic obstacle courses. No matter how complex and meandering the syntax:
Swearengen: I wanna know who cut the cheese. I’ll tell you this for openers: We are gonna set off an area on the balcony. And God help whoever doesn’t use it, because the next stink I have to smell in this office, and whoever doesn’t admit to it is going out the window, into the muck, onto their fucking heads, and we’ll see how they like farting from that position, okay?
Or how about:
Wild Bill: Some goddamn point a man’s due to stop arguing with hisself and feeling twice the goddamn fool he knows he is ‘cause he can’t be something he tries to be every goddamn day without once getting to dinnertime and fucking it up. I don’t want to fight no more, understand me Charlie? And I don’t need you pissing in my ear about it. Will you let me go to hell the way I want to?
Milch has faith that, not only will the actors deliver the lines “trippingly off the tongue,” but that even if the specific and detailed meaning is lost on the viewer, it won’t matter. The consonants carried the thought. The vowels carried the emotion. On a basic, primitive level, just hearing the sound is enough. And as for the neverending stream of “fucks” and “cocks” and “cunts,” never would Milch dream of curtailing his characters’ “full range of expression.” But the language of “Deadwood” is as much about the sound of the words as it is about the verisimilitude of foul mouths in an outlaw town.
Foul language also acts as a shield, helping the inhabitants of Deadwood keep their emotional distance from one another. The added, and I’m quite sure intentional, benefit of the choice to shove at least one “fuck” in every sentence is the aching poignancy found in the rare moments where two people actually connect. The perfect example of this, and quite possibly my favorite scene in the season (if not the series), comes toward the end of Episode 11, “Jewel’s Boot Is Made for Walking.” Trixie (Paul Malcomson) and Sol have been circling each other since he got to town. Trixie is as broken a human as can be. Having spent most of her life as a whore, having been beaten repeatedly and having barely survived a suicide attempt in which she burst a vein trying to OD on opium, one would understand if she never let another human anywhere near her heart. So it’s a surprise when she marches into the hardware store and up to Sol:
Trixie: You wanna free fuck?
Sol: Why would you say that?
Trixie: To know the answer.
Sol: Why would you say it like that?
Trixie: Jesus Christ. Mr. Starr, my cherry is obstructing my work, sir. Would you take it from me? Free?
Sol walks to the door, looks up and down the street and pulls it shut. He walks back to her, gently takes her hand and leads her to the back of the store. He lifts her skirt, unbuttons his pants and slides inside of her, all the while trying to look her in the eye, kiss her mouth, but she’s evasive. They’re interrupted by Bullock. Sol pulls out and looks to his friend, sheepish. Bullock turns on his heel and leaves, offering to lock up on his way out. Sol turns his attention back to Trixie, slips inside her again and tries to kiss her. She pulls away.
Trixie: Kiss my neck or tits if you have to kiss something.
He holds her gaze. Then, lovingly…
Sol: Let me kiss you.
She lets slip a slight smile.
Trixie: Well, you’re a goddamned Jew fool.
And with that she kisses him, deeply.
Despite the fucking and the shiving and the scheming and the vicious beatings (there’s something truly fucked about watching Kristen Bell, as a murderous, thieving whore, get her skull cracked in), “Deadwood” has no shortage of hilarity. In one of the funniest moments in the series, Al tries to communicate with Mr. Wu (Keone Young), the boss of “Chink Alley”:
Coming full circle, what sets “Deadwood” apart from all other shows, with the exception of “The Wire,” is its fearlessness in never ending an episode. They don’t end, they just stop, and often after a long and rambling soliloquy from Al. I mean, a motherfucking soliloquy. Who, other than Milch, can pull that shit off? My favorite of all of Al’s diatribes is also from “Jewel’s Boot.” Having banished Trixie to the whores’ quarters for fucking Sol, Al has picked a new favorite girl to share his bed. He has a lot on his mind. The camp will soon be annexed, and he’s had no luck bribing the magistrate to quash an outstanding murder warrant. As he disrobes, he barks at the whore:
Swearengen: You suck my dick and shut the fuck up, huh? … Now then, here. The place where I found you, huh? Is where this warrant’s from. Could you believe that I may have stuck a knife in someone’s guts before you got on the wagon and we headed out to fucking Laramie? No! Because I don’t look fucking backwards. I do what I have to do and go on. Woah, woah woah what? You got a stagecoach to catch or something? Slow the fuck up. Did you know the orphanage part the building you lived in, behind it she ran a whorehouse, huh? So you knew? So what the fuck are you lookin at, huh? Now I’ll tell you something you don’t know. Before she ran a girls’ orphanage that fat, Mrs. fucking Anderson ran the boy’s orphanage on fucking Euclid Avenue. And I would see her fat ass waddling out the boys dorm at five o’ clock in the fucking morning every fucking morning after she blew her stupid fucking cow bell and woke us all the fuck up. And my fucking mother dropped me the fuck off there with seven dollars and sixty some odd fucking cents on her way to sucking cock in fucking Georgia. And I didn’t get to count the fucking cents before the fucking door opens and there’s Mrs. Fat-ass fucking Anderson, who sold you to me, I had to give her seven dollars and sixty odd fucking cents that my mother shoved in my fucking hand before she hammered one, two, three, four times on the fucking door and scurried off down fucking Euclid Avenue probably thirty fucking years before you were fucking born. Then around Cape Horn, and up to San Francisco where she probably became mayor or some other type success story unless by some fucking chance she wound up as a dish for fucking cum. Now. Fucking go. Faster. … (He cums.) Okay. Go ahead and spit it out. You don’t need to swallow. Just spit it out. … (Long pause.) Anyways.
He takes a swig of whisky and cut to black.
The fucking end.
Yeah. … Anyways.
Beckylooo Who is a newly minted television writer. Don’t ask which show. Further rantings and ravings can be found at If A TV Falls in the Woods.
DVD Releases 07/01/08 | | Pajiba Love 07/01/08
Comments
At this point the whole exercise is just a cruel joke. I firmly believe the Pajiba staff has conspired to put as many HBO shows on the list as possible without naming any seasons of the Sopranos. I fully expect the 20th show named to be "Arli$$."
Oh, and I'm glad you all decided to front-load this list even more.
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 1, 2008 2:14 PM
I'm actually making my way through this show right now. Good stuff.
Posted by: Kevin Longrie at July 1, 2008 2:17 PM
No Sopranos? C'mon! Or how bout Dexter? Epic fail.
Posted by: Sean M at July 1, 2008 2:24 PM
amen.
i love the simple yet dead-on comparison to the wire.
great stuff.
i find myself thinking about the very last line of the series finale often- "wants me to tell him something pretty", and how perfect it is for the show and for life.
Posted by: dg at July 1, 2008 2:27 PM
Also, the article implies that Beckyloohoo refuses to suck cock. I knew Pajiba was no fun.
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 1, 2008 2:29 PM
This brings a tear to my eye! I miss Deadwood! it was like a knife in the heart when they cancelled it and then flaked out on the promised movies! (Cocksukers!)
I try to explain the brilliance of the show to others and to tell them it's like Shakespeare but bloodier, funnier, and fouler-mouthed, but they never listen.
Posted by: peachfish at July 1, 2008 2:30 PM
That show was like a knife in the heart every episode. Those characters broke my fucking heart and god did I LOVE to listen to Al Swearengen talk.
Posted by: megbon at July 1, 2008 2:34 PM
Oh thank Godtopus! My faith in Pajiba has been shaken lately. Only 14 fuckin' comments on Three Days of the Condor? Book reviews that go virtually un-commented? It would have been the last straw if Deadwood did not make the best 20 seasons list. I truly believe it is the best television show ever. No qualifications to that statement. In celebration, I'm opening a tin of peaches. You're all invited. I may even serve some cinnamon.
Posted by: PaddyDog at July 1, 2008 2:36 PM
One of the most intricately written shows I've ever watched...this is another, like The West Wing, where I can't ever pick a favorite character because they're all too wonderful. Especially my Calamity Jane, she could make me weep and cackle simultaneously.
Posted by: Julie at July 1, 2008 2:38 PM
So this guide couldn't be restricted to the best 15 seasons in 20 years as it originally started and needed to increased to 20 in 20? The extra five better be worth it!
Posted by: branded at July 1, 2008 2:38 PM
Ah I adore first season of Deadwood. The episode "Suffer the Little Children" (the episode where Kristen Bell's skull gets cracked) has to be my single most favorite episode of television ever. The conversation between Joanie and Cy at the end breaks my heart.
Posted by: Miskubelik at July 1, 2008 2:39 PM
I wonder how long Sirkickyass was hovering around Pajiba, waiting, waiting for the opportunity to seize the "First!" post with his crippling, superhuman disdain for the opinions of others.
Posted by: Gershwyn Smith at July 1, 2008 2:43 PM
Like the Pajiba staff I was merely floating around aimlessly with no guiding principles and merely happened to land on the latest addition to this atrocious list first.
That being said I am thrilled that there is now something superhuman about me that is not located below the belt.
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 1, 2008 2:53 PM
Wow, Ticklyass, looks like you used your 30 Dominos minutes to be a fucking douchebag.
Posted by: hatemail at July 1, 2008 3:07 PM
Also wanted to mention Joanie Stubbs, whom I love and wonder what happened to that actress. Anyhoo, my favorite of her lines? "I'll just be here in my girl's world diddling myself"
Posted by: megbon at July 1, 2008 3:09 PM
In the 7th paragraph above you write:
"Calamity Jane (Robin Weigert), hopeless alcoholic and lover of Wild Bill, is disconsolate after his death."
Wasn't Calamity Jane a lesbian?
Posted by: Winwood at July 1, 2008 3:12 PM
I was reading a silly little paperback romance (shut up, it's summer), and one of the characters, a mermaid king (I said it was a silly little book) has fallen in love with Deadwood DVDs and "King Al, a great warrior". And said mermaid king walks around cheerfully calling everyone a motherf***er to speak in their dialect. His descriptions of the series made me laugh out loud and dig around for the DVDs. This was just a beautiful show that could make me love, then hate, then love again a character (often in one episode), but I was never apathetic toward a single character. And that is the mark of genuis on the part of everyone involved, every actor, writer, director, producer, set designer, costume designer, and prop guy.
Posted by: libraryliz at July 1, 2008 3:13 PM
I loved Joanie too Megbon, though my favorite of the working women will always be Trixie.
So many actors were beyond magnificent in this show...Brad Dourif as the Doc, Dayton Callie as Charlie, Jim Beaver as motherfucking Ellsworth, and god, W. Earl Brown as Dan...I LOVE Dan. I would tear up whenever Al would be mean to him. And that fight scene with Hearst's henchman in the thoroughfare was badass.
Posted by: Julie at July 1, 2008 3:15 PM
"Not my favorite, mind you, but the motherfucking best. "
I could argue with that, but it wouldn't be a terribly compelling argument. Deadwood is a fucking force of nature, an absolutely perfect television show. And this was an absolutely gorgeous review... and anyone who disagrees with that sucks cock by choice.
And remember people - don't feed it, or it just comes back for more.
Posted by: TK at July 1, 2008 3:16 PM
Winwood, poor syntax on my part where this is concerned:
In the 7th paragraph above you write:
"Calamity Jane (Robin Weigert), hopeless alcoholic and lover of Wild Bill, is disconsolate after his death."
Wasn't Calamity Jane a lesbian?
I did not mean "lover" as is, one who fucks another. I meant "lover" as in, one who loves.
Posted by: Beckylooo at July 1, 2008 3:18 PM
I fucking love this cocksucking show, and I'm righteously perturbed at the hubris shown in its cancellation and the subsequent cock punch that was "John from Cincinnati". My humours were made dark by the cocksuckers responsible for that malformed aberration.
Posted by: JustBill at July 1, 2008 3:18 PM
LOVE IS IN THE AIR BITCHES!
I love Deadwood, and I made a shirt that says "I Love Swearengen." I am a freak and don't care.
Oh, now I have to go and watch it again.
PS. Libraryliz, I've read your book too. Emoticon time : )
Posted by: Emily at July 1, 2008 3:24 PM
And remember people - don't feed it, or it just comes back for more.
Seconded.
Posted by: jM at July 1, 2008 3:29 PM
Excuse me. I-I am mad. Tell him yes, I'll be there to watch the home run... Wait, tell him, no I will not be there...! Wait, I mustn't tell at all, lest I then wander the thoroughfare gibbering like a simian... brandishing my privates in my fist.
Allow me a moment's silence, Mr. Hearst, Sir...I am having a digestive crisis and must focus on suppressing its expression.
Farnum: Some ancient Italian maxim fits our situation, whose particulars escape me.
Wolcott: Is the gist that I'm shit out of luck?
Farnum: Did they speak that way then?
Ah, EB Farnum... the greatest speaker of the English language.
Posted by: heddy at July 1, 2008 3:40 PM
Wow, I love this show.
Dan, Silas, and Johnny Burns- the three fucking stooges.
Posted by: Rachel at July 1, 2008 3:51 PM
And if you really want to waste an hour or two...
Posted by: heddy at July 1, 2008 3:51 PM
Does this mean that Two and a Half Men isn't making the list? No?
Posted by: Nicole at July 1, 2008 4:07 PM
Thanks to whe wondrous world of Netflix, I fell in love with three incredible HBO series I don't think I ever would have watched otherwise: 'The Wire', 'Rome' and 'Deadwood', in that order.
Being the antisocial, despondent, world-hating person I am, I can hardly describe the genuine thrill I now get when knowing I have an itinerary of 6 - 8 "new" episodes that I can shut myself in and watch at my leisure over the weekend.
And I STILL have the 5th season of 'The Wire' to watch!
Who needs meaningful interaction with the human race when I have such wonderful material to entertain me in my own home? I'm only afraid that after getting the 'John Adams' miniseries I'll have completely drained the HBO well of all its good shows. Then what??
Guess I'll just have to start over with these. God forbid I stay out in the sun for one second longer than it takes me to retrieve my latest Netflix DVDs from the mailbox.
Posted by: TMax at July 1, 2008 4:22 PM
This article inspired me so, I went forthwith to Best Buy to determine if I had the wherewithal to procure a season or two of the show. Indeed, fortune smiled grandly, as Season 1 and 2 are selling at a reduced price of $35! (Which is about half of the ass-raping price HBO usually charges for its products.)
Posted by: JustBill at July 1, 2008 4:28 PM
thinking internationally,
SCTV should be considered for this list.
if not, then at least a season of kids in the hall.
how about absolutely fabulous or the office (UK) ?
Posted by: celery at July 1, 2008 4:30 PM
oh, i didn't mean to completely ignore the topic. this was a really interesting article that will cause me to watch this show, which fell completely under my radar.
Posted by: celery at July 1, 2008 4:33 PM
I love this goddamn show so much I made bumper stickers that say:
BULLOCK - SWEARENGEN 2008
I can dream, can't I?
Posted by: Becky Tri-Tip Goddess at July 1, 2008 4:43 PM
BULLOCK - SWEARENGEN 2008
That is sheer brilliance, Becky. I would immediately become a citizen just to vote for them, except of course in my world it's SWEARENGEN - BULLOCK. I'm not sure Seth has his anger under control enough to be the front man and Mrs. Bullock might be a little too Tipper Goreish once she's ensconsed in the halls of power. Now President Swearengen! That's something I could get behind with Trixie and Jewel switching off as First-Whore.
What? As if the position hasn't been around for years albeit unacknowledged from a formal perspective.
Posted by: PaddyDog at July 1, 2008 5:03 PM
I know I'm going to get boxed about the head and neck for this, but....I actually liked John From Cincinnati.
...the first four episodes anyway. Seriously, they were such a mindfuck, but still amazingly well done (minus Rebecca de Mornay). And the end of the episode where Shaunie broke his neck, and he's out on the halfpipe, and TV on the Radio's "Staring at the Sun" starts to swell?? Chills.
That being said, everything from episode five on was utter shite, and seriously led me to question humanity. The first 30 minutes of the last episode was almost a return to form, but then Luke Perry's monologue blew any good will that the rest of the episode had built up.
Ah well.
Posted by: Munkymack at July 1, 2008 5:16 PM
Deadwood was a great show and if any of you cocksuckers haven't seen it you need to. There were two moments on screen that I was just "holy crap" and had to look away.
Someone really needs to redub Kung Fu Panda and add some cocksucker bombs to Tai Lung.
Posted by: EricD at July 1, 2008 5:25 PM
"I'm Charlie Utter."
"I'm Seth Bullock."
"We're Wild Bill Hickok's friends."
Chills, that moment. Chills.
Posted by: mightygodking at July 1, 2008 5:31 PM
I'm still upset about this "sucks cock by choice" line. Are you saying that several of the women that I've dated, all of whom were enthusiastic cock-suckers without encouragement, had something wrong with them? I certainly didn't think so.
Another point, are you saying that it is somehow worse to such cock "by choice" than if someone say forces you too through coercion? Aren't you a woman? How can you justify such an order where consent is worse than being forced to suck cock?
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 1, 2008 5:46 PM
TK:
I'm sitting on my hands and buttoning my lips.
Posted by: PaddyDog at July 1, 2008 5:49 PM
It's a line from the show, Kicky.
Posted by: Julie at July 1, 2008 5:51 PM
Absolutely brilliant review of the single greatest show ever to grace (or profane LOL) the airwaves.
SWEARENGEN/BULLOCK '08 is damn fine idea
Posted by: PMD at July 1, 2008 5:52 PM
Julie: In that case it is fair given that it is meant for referential purposes.
I actually don't have any significant problem with the placement of Deadwood in a vacuum. I've never seen the show and it got a fair amount of critical praise and the review I heard on NPR prior to its first season finale was glowing.
All that being said, while Deadwood's inclusion is probably not a bad choice it magnifies the current problems with the list by being another show within the last five years and makes it even more likely that previous atrocious picks will ultimately bump off shows that are objective "must haves" that are currently not on the list.
Unless of course Pajiba caves and renames the list "our favorites" or decides to just make the list 100 shows long.
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 1, 2008 6:04 PM
HBO thought motherfuckers was going to take "Deadwood" being canceled laying down, Shiiiiiit. I don't even fuck with HBO anymore. They could broadcast "Cat House" 24/7, and I still won't fuck with them.
Posted by: Pookie at July 1, 2008 6:14 PM
Sirkickyass I admire you, the patience it must take to walk among us mere mortals.
Posted by: Pookie at July 1, 2008 6:22 PM
Pookie: You have no idea.
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 1, 2008 6:40 PM
Oh, you're talking about those Aquaman romances, aren't you?
(well, that's who these guys are)
You know that Kids In The Hall sketch where an irate Bruce McCulloch in a restaurant keeps yelling at Scott and Mark about what he doesn't want now?
Posted by: Jay at July 1, 2008 6:59 PM
Pookie:
I'm with you. I canceled HBO the day Deadwood ended (I'm getting the rest of The Wire via DVD). I will not be back.
Posted by: PaddyDog at July 1, 2008 7:08 PM
Did people really suck that much schlong in the Old West? Or is that a product of a gay manifesto of Rainbow Hollywood?
Posted by: c.j. at July 1, 2008 7:18 PM
You have no idea the powerful curse I put on the cocksuckers at HBO who cancelled this fantastic show. (Considering the poor ratings of many HBO shows lately, I think it worked.)
My own favorite line:
Adams: "When he ain't lyin', Al's the most honorable man you'll meet."
Posted by: DB at July 1, 2008 7:24 PM
HBO had the best shows on TV for a solid decade. And they let their creators run wild.
What I love so much about Deadwood is that it's a show about carving civilization out of the wild. And who's doing the carving? Not the pleasant old men we get images of in history books or the father figures so white-washed as to be clean of all grime. Instead, it's the pimps, the thieves, the desperate, the foolish and the criminal. It's the people who can't or won't stay in the safe comfort of society.
And Ian McShane gets a lifetime pass from me for his portrayal of Al Swearengen. One of the 10 best TV characters of the last 10 years (along with Stringer Bell and Tony Soprano).
Posted by: BFFredo at July 1, 2008 7:35 PM
TK, Paddy, jerce, et al, please excuse me for ignoring your request for ignorance regarding this Sirkickyass, who, today at least, really seems to have more of a problem than the rest of us combined Pajiba commenters, (all of whose comments I've read before beginning this post) with the particular selections from the Pajiba crew for best 20 out of the last 20 TV seasons
[I'm a slow writer, so please forgive that right now it's 7:30pm & I won't be reading any other comments 'til I'm done here- and jerce, here's where I confirm your "fucking windbag" theory)
Sir Ass,
One of your initial comments (5:46 pm post) most immediately and pathetically betrayed you, along with seriously degrading any literate intelligence you seem to so obviously possess, once you mentioned your male anatomy in a completely unrelated comment to your original gripe about the HBO selections and the "front-load"ing you described (I'm still trying to wrap my head around that). And, being the "superhuman" beings we are, I must point out my colleague's lack of proof-reading: "..somehow worse to such a cock" - - "SUCH a cock"??
Well, whaddaya know guys, he fucks up on simple lil' words just like we do!
As for the 6:04 pm post: Without complaining about your lack of cock-sucky-worthiness, which had nothing whatsoever to do with the initial comment/complaint you registered at the outset: had you stuck to your original argument about the staff choices and offered valid alternatives without just dismissing theirs as "atrocious" (mentioning 'The Sopranos' incidentally, by the way - wouldn't that in itself had been a valid argument? You couldn't bother with pontificating on thatinstead of the other bullshit? But let's see what lies ahead, shall we?)
Your 6:04pm post on 'Deadwood': "I'VE NEVER SEEN THE SHOW..." (Caps mine)
[I'm sorry, I'm too lame to know how to use italics or bold letters, so I have to resort to this- I welcome any help in this matter]
I think it bears re-quoting
"I'VE NEVER SEEN THE SHOW..."
This alone reveals your obvious motivation to encourage belligerent statements to rile someone up for no other reason than to be noticed and acknowledged, exactly the opposite of your last postings on the 'Wanted' review.
At least on that review, I felt you had a valid point and communicated it well, and I personally was surprised at the vehemence shown to you by others. Even through other responses you managed to keep your argument at the focus (it had to do with the single word "Inarguably," as I remember).
But you done went and fucked up tonight, amigo.
You've revealed that you want to argue just for the sake of argument, which is all well and good; but if your argument holds no weight, gives no contribution to the merits of the subject you postulate on, you've exposed yourself as (for lack of a better term now, since I'm going to bed) a pitiful individual whose only satisfaction is typing invective on the internet, to any site he happens to come across.
I got an idea:
Name YOUR 'Top 20 Best Seasons' list, right here, for everyone to see, notwithstanding you haven't even seen 'Deadwood' (you're scorin' lots of cred there, Bud).
BACK UP your choices without denegrating the others, give us your own perfect rationale and let's all see what you come up with, oh knowledgable one.
Carry on, Pajibans
[Note: being near-drunk is the only caveat I give to tonight's epistle - I may hate myself in the morning, but that's the chance an alcoholic takes, innit?)
Posted by: TMax at July 1, 2008 8:39 PM
I know, I know. Don't feed the trolls. As usual, TK's right but I can't help myself. I must respond to this silliness with (gasp!) facts.
Sir Ass you argument is fallacious. But before I get to that, I'd like to refer you to the first paragraph of this post in which I confront, head on, the perscriptivist nature of this endeavor. My belief that a "Best of" list of anything is always imperfect and bound to disapoint someone somewhere stands. Had you approached your argument similarly, I would have had your back. But you continue to insist that the view from your window is the only view that matters, nay exists and that is not only false, it is inane.
Now, onto specifics. The guide is "The Best 20 Season of the Last 20 Years." In case you're as bad at math as you are at debate, that covers 1988 - 2008. Here is a list of those shows covered thus far and the years in which they premiered.
Arrested Development - 2003
Six Feet Under - 2001
West Wing - 1999
Larry Sanders - 1992
Farscape - 1999
Buffy - 1997
Sex and the City - 1998
Twin Peaks - 1990
The Wire - 2002
The Simpsons - 1989
Murder One - 1995
Firefly - 2002
FNL - 2006
Veronica Mars - 2004
Deadwood - 2004
That makes, four, count them FOUR shows from the last five years which leaves eleven which aired PRIOR to five years ago. So what was your point again?
In my own opinion and mine alone, there is one atrocious pick on our list (as well as two shows I've never seen - and as a side note, the fact that you've never seen Deadwood severly undercuts your credibility in bestowing TV Best Of status. Oh wait, I'm sorry, you listen to NPR. I take it back). There are choices above I might not have made but I wouldn't deem them atrocious. Again, imperfection is not only the nature of a list like this but also the nature of a democracy. Having been privy to the email exchange that created this list I can gaurentee you no one believes it to be be perfect. It is, however, an accurate and respectful reflection of the disparate voices of the Pajiba staff. If you don't like us, you are more than welcome to take your marbles and go home.
In closing, I would like to ask that you list your very own personal Top 20 so that everyone here can extend you the courtesy you've so generously offered us and ennumerate all the ways you are a fucking idiot.
Posted by: Beckylooo at July 1, 2008 8:48 PM
TMax and I are obviously sipping from the same bottle. But just to make it clear... Ya'll do know we've got 5 shows left, right?
Posted by: Beckylooo at July 1, 2008 8:53 PM
Oh Hell in a Handbasket! I went and broke my "proofread before you post" rule. Shit.
Perscriptivist=perspectivist.
Apologies.
Posted by: Beckylooo at July 1, 2008 8:59 PM
Dammit, Becks, if you'd have posted just a few minutes earlier I could have saved myself a lot of typing - you outdid me in every way.
Having said that, your review was most excellent, and indeed captured the 'feel' of the show even for those without the benefit of having watched it.
I look forward to your next review, and if I have any criticism about it I'll let you know in a polite, civilized way, without tearing it apart for some barely tangible reason that I can get attention about.
Posted by: TMax at July 1, 2008 9:05 PM
TMax and Beckylooo, in my own experience, creating a deliciously well-written rebuttal is not as satisfying as one would think, knowing that the target of one's argument is not likely to respond with the same thoughtfulness.
(Please feel free to prove me wrong, Sir, as I too wouldn't mind seeing your Top 20.)
TMax, the trick is for bold: type [b] before the text you want bolded, and [/b] after--but use the "less than" and "greater than" symbols in place of the square brackets (I tried to demonstrate, but the symbols won't show up on the preview!). For italics, same thing, only with "i" instead of "b".
Posted by: MO(meaux) at July 1, 2008 9:15 PM
Sirkickyass my friend, I believe Beckylooo has gone to the mattresses. Beckylooo just so you know honey, I never liked Sirkickyass, motherfucker be walking round like his farts don't stink.
Posted by: Pookie at July 1, 2008 9:22 PM
TMax I hope you won't be disappointed with my incisive look at Season One of Arli$$, comin' atcha in slot number 20.
And Mo, did I not find such satisfaction in the writing of rebuttals, I would agree with you completely. Assman can disappear into the ether, never to be heard from again and I'll still be able to read my comment and crack myself up. I'm a narcissist like that.
Posted by: Beckylooo at July 1, 2008 9:23 PM
Well, I can't argue there--that was a damned fine rebuttal, missy.
Also, terrific review. I've never seen Deadwood, and I now feel like I'm missing out greatly!
Posted by: MO(meaux) at July 1, 2008 9:30 PM
Oh, NOW you see it. But I was treated like a raving lunatic.
True, I WAS being a raving lunatic, but that doesn't mean I didn't have a point. ;)
Good luck, TMax and Beckylooo. And have fun.
Posted by: Vermillion at July 1, 2008 10:54 PM
TMax, Beckyloo, Meaux - your ideas sound familiar, and your sentiments were well-put and reasonable. Can we agree that if Kicky's any kind of man he'll put his money where his mouth is and finally descend from on high to give us his well-learned and enlightened Top 20 list? If he doesn't, can we finally start ignoring him for the sake of reducing comment thread dysfunction?
I've gotta give mad props to the Pajiba writers of this top 20 list - you guys are filling up the few hours of freedom I have with quality shows to watch! So what if I don't care for some of them - this whole list I feel has served its purpose in drawing attention to great shows that *ahem* those of use without cable have missed. I'll start trying to catch up, but it's kinda busy here - this could take a while. Oh, and Melody, I did watch Animal House (it was ok, with some great moments) over the weekend, can I have my life back please?
Finally, here's an obligatory XKCD link: http://xkcd.com/438/
Posted by: lordhelmet at July 1, 2008 11:02 PM
wonderful wonderful wonderful review! i was hoping to christ that deadwood would reach this list. :)
but - jane was never a lover of wild bill! you can check any factbook or website or anything. she was a friend of his and a close ally. jane dressed and swore like a man, so it is implied that she should be treated like any of bill's male cohorts. jane was one of his good friends, but she was a wrangler and a cowboy and someone who saw Custer's Last Stand, just like bill. She was never romantically involved and maybe, maybe she HOPED for it. But it was never the case.
plus, jane/joanie is WAY HOTTER than bill/jane. any day of the week.
Posted by: iguanodonna at July 1, 2008 11:53 PM
She loved him. That was all I meant by it. I mentioned it up thread. Poor word choice on my part.
Posted by: Beckylooo at July 2, 2008 12:03 AM
Ah, damned cocksuckers, I'm a long-time lurker, but I had to say something after reading this great review and reading the love in the comments for this incredible show...fuck, just brings a tear to my eye.
How those cocksuckers at HBO let the final season get away will always be a mystery to me (they must have been from Yankton).
Such incredible language and acting and costumes and sets and...well, everything about the show was perfect.
Hell, I even remember this classic tribute on le Tube, and thinkin' "yup, this hooplehead got it right."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f31PLcCXD0U
And another favorite scene...Al as the best fucking counselor in the world. Truer words have not been spoken:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2Q7YRDL90E
(language NSFW, of course)
Posted by: Swedgin at July 2, 2008 1:50 AM
The motherfucking best.
I all but lost my shit in the season finale where Al "takes care" of the Reverend, while Doc Cochran* angrily curseprays to the Lord.
*practically all of the cast deserve loads of praise, so I'm giving my shout-out to Brad Dourif.
Posted by: Adere at July 2, 2008 2:55 AM
Wow. I don't go online all day and the internet briefly explodes and everyone starts passing out congratulatory high fives.
TMax: Reading your post makes me believe you missed out on the much larger and fuller debate on the issue after the Veronica Mars pick. I didn't try to rehash the entire thing up top here and I can see that in a vacuum having not read that you would think the complaint is simply "I personally don't like these picks." That had very little to do with it. In brief (and if you want the really really long version I'd go back to the original debate) my overall criticism of the list was that it was picking lots of shows that are like the secret geek handshake for people in the "in crowd" to know. Shows like Firefly, Veronica Mars, etc. are well known for being niche audience shows that never really caught on. Some are good and others ... well there's a reason they died so early. Essentially, my point was that a number of OBVIOUS shows that had to be picked from the range such as the Sopranos, Seinfeld, Frasier, and others (I named about 5 or 6 better contenders in the other thread) were being bumped for the likes of Friday Night Lights and other more recent shows whose impact going forward isn't known yet and that cannot justifiably bump off other shows. In particular I advocated for picking shows using a few clear guiding principles such as a) critical acclaim, b) lasting cultural impact, c) exploration of larger themes, and d) originality.
I also argued the list was flawed because it was chronologically tilted, which we'll talk more about in a second.
As a result, I concluded that the list was mistitled because the inclusion of such obvious "Pajiba favorites" instead of other shows indicated it was a favorites list instead of a "best of" list. Really a pretty simple argument.
That being said, I can understand that if you hadn't read the earlier discussion the shorthand wasn't helpful.
As to your season listing the key factor you're not taking into account is that we're not talking about each show's premiere date we're talking about what SEASON each show happened in. Thus, you have to add years to the premiere date to find out when the season pajiba picked occurred. That makes it more backloaded.
A correct list would be:
Arrested Development Season 2: 2004
Six Feet Under Season 1: 2001
West Wing Season 2: 2000
Larry Sanders Show Season 5: 1997
Farscape Season 3: 2002
Buffy Season 2: 1997
Sex and the City Season 4: 2002
Twin Peaks Season 1: 1990
The Wire Season 2: 2003
The Simpsons Season 2: 1990
Murder 1 Season 1: 1995
Firefly: 2002
Friday Night Lights Season 1: 2006
Veronica Mars Season 1: 2004
Deadwood Season 1: 2004
Here's the breakdown in five year chunks:
2003-2007: 5
1998-2002: 5 (3 of which are in 2002, this demonstrates the loading on one end further because it means over half of the 15 selected are in the last 6 years).
1993-1997: 3
1988-1992: 2
So the argument for the time skew can be put like this:
1. 53.3% of the picks occur in the most recent 30% of the time period involved.
2. 66% of the picks occur in the most recent 50% of the time period involved.
3. The last five years has as many selections as the first ten years in the period combined.
You really don't see how this is loaded on one end at all?
I've also talked about why I wouldn't do a full list before. It has something to do with the fact that it's taking Pajiba months to do it and I frankly don't feel like investing that kind of time on you guys.
Also, sorry I didn't watch Deadwood. Only so many hours in the day and all and its heyday was when I was in law school and got more selective about what shows I wanted to watch. Deadwood is on the list of things I will watch eventually; lord knows I'm calling an abort on The Adventures of Briso County after some episodes of pure suckage.
This is getting long so I'll respond to others in separate posts.
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 2, 2008 5:17 AM
I also realized that I responded largely to beckyloohoo in the last response. This is why we don't write at 2:00 in the morning and hit page up and page down a lot until we see our name. *sigh*.
Ok, back to TMAX: I think I actually addressed a good chunk of your argument up above when I was inadvertantly responding to beckyloohoo (typos aside).
What I will say is that I specifically went out of my way above to say I wasn't going to dispute the specific selection of Deadwood because I would have very little to complain about. I see the selection of Deadwood as being futher confirmation that one of several other shows will inevitably be squeezed out by previous awful picks such as Veronica Mars and Friday Night Lights.
Also I love that everyone seems to understand my deep psychological need to argue. Let me tell you all exactly why I get upset when this website does things like neglect obvious selections that would have to be on any list from the last 2 decades and makes retarded statements like including Office Space as an inarguable "best of the Clinton administration:
Frankly, it's clear that the people who write for this website have far more education than most bloggers. They have the power to NOT do these things and the potential is so so high for legitimate lists with some surprising and defensible picks. Picking some shows to the exclusion of others that are clear must haves (which I've listed numerous times), and especially picking shows where it merely appears that the staff has gone to their DVD shelf and said "what did I watch last week?" cheapens the entire enterprise. In essence I wish you all had enough self respect to demand of yourselves that your list could be viewed at the end of the day and seen as a potentially objective group of picks. I think you have failed to do so.
I really wouldn't mind if there were just a few oddball picks and all the biggies were represented. That would make the list interesting but still legitimate. However, going for all the geek chic shows and putting yourselves in a position where you will inevitably at this point be forced to exclude some mandatory and near universal selections has made it so that the list can no longer be viewed that way.
Frankly, my "superhuman hatred" (I'm putting that on my resume and business card by the way) has a lot to do with wishing this place cared more about what it could be instead of settling for everyone patting themselves on the back about how great they are and finally settling for being mediocre just so Farscape can get a shout out.
I think that covered all the main bases and sorry for the identity confusion earlier between TMax and Beckyloohoo. These days I just mix everyone who hates me up. You all are lucky I didn't call one of you mom. =)
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 2, 2008 5:32 AM
you want to talk about shakespearen structuring then you need to be talking about Frasier.
I dont know if you include sitcoms on this list(which, by the way, you could have published in a book, comments and all) but i wasnt even a big watcher of Frasier and could appreciate the unwavering genius of the language and structure of the dialogue.
but back to Deadwood, i missed a lot of this show but caught it when i could and loved the unholy hell out of it. Tim Olyphant was my personal draw to it, i've had love for him since Scream 2 and great googly moogly he was good in this.
I loved his robotic ability to go completely still when a situation calls for it, many a time i'd be watching the show, Tim'd quit blinking and i'd know someone was about to get a lashin' verbal or otherwise
i'll have to rewatch this whole thing because as i say, i missed a lot of it...Swearengen is amongts the greatest characters on television and was played wonderfully .
I miss good TV like this
I was thinking recently that HBO should revive the sitcom Titus(another one you should have on this list damn it!) but HBO style, the cussing and violence the sitcom promised but couldnt deliver in full bore.
It would be awesome.
The end
Posted by: nadine at July 2, 2008 7:50 AM
I see your point Sirkickyass, instead of going for the best choice they chose the more popular choice. Thereby choosing to be cool as opposed to choosing the right choice. They always do that, every since I became a contributor to this website I noticed a slight shift to go with the more popular stance. And I think you noticed it also, but instead of pajiba examining this growing trend. Pajiaba chose to send out it's henchmen to sully our name. My friend we are in a culture war.
Posted by: pookie at July 2, 2008 9:40 AM
Now that's an unlikely fuckin' pair of allies.
Posted by: TK at July 2, 2008 10:00 AM
One thing for sure, there truly is an oral fixation hanging over this t.v. series!
Posted by: C.J. at July 2, 2008 10:18 AM
Isn't Olyphant, what Samwise Gangee called Elephants in the LOTR series?
Coincidence or psychic phenomenona?
Posted by: carter at July 2, 2008 10:26 AM
I know I'm feeding the beast for writing this, but here goes: Kicky, does it really fucking matter that the best of series is front loaded? What if it was back loaded, then what? You'd complain about that too? Jesus....give it a rest!
Posted by: cpw at July 2, 2008 10:27 AM
Nearly, it was "oliphaunt".
Connection: who can say?
Posted by: Jay at July 2, 2008 10:31 AM
Oh, I just love this:
"I've also talked about why I wouldn't do a full list before. It has something to do with the fact that it's taking Pajiba months to do it and I frankly don't feel like investing that kind of time in you guys."
Then a paragraph later he states:
"This is getting long so I'll respond to others in separate posts."
For someone who doesn't "feel like investing that kind of time," kickyass certainly had the stamina to type out all that rhetoric from roughly 3am to 5:30am, apparently whilst Beckyloo and I were getting a decent night's sleep (not together, unfortunately).
Methinks the man doth protest just enough to reveal how desperate he is to get in the last word. If that's your ultimate goal, then have at it, buddy. I won't compel you to lose any more sleep having to respond to my comments.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have plans to go motorboating with Julie, and I'm dying to see if MO(meaux)'s instructions on italicizing and bolding will allow me to use HTML tags for style.
Posted by: TMax at July 2, 2008 11:02 AM
It worked, MO - by god it worked!!
I'm king of the fucking world now!!!
For someone who uses italics as much as I like using them, this is like a gift from above.
Thanks so much for letting me feel a little less ignorant, MO, you're a sweetheart.
Posted by: TMax at July 2, 2008 11:07 AM
Re: Kickypoo This is a conversation for the ages!
Um, somewhere waaay up the thread there's a note about women and their roles in Deadwood.
David Milch based a lot of this show on the Deadwood Gazette (if I remember newspaper's name correctly). The issues are still around in some archive as well as historical documents about the settling of Deadwood. (Due to Hickok and Hearst's arrival at Deadwood there is more info than usual about this mining town.) ~90% of the women in Deadwood were prostitutes, not all that different from today's mining and oil towns around Asia and Africa. The Gem made outrageous amounts of money- like $10k a day- and the town's gold tapped out within 20 years or so.
It would have been interesting to continue Deadwood a couple more seasons to see what happens as the gold starts to slow down.
I have to end with Charlie Utter:
(upon looking around his crammed shipping offices) "Who are all these people?"
Posted by: Amanda47 at July 2, 2008 11:27 AM
You hoopleheaded cocksuckers, I love this motherfucking show. Never were there actors who played their motherless-whore parts better than these. David cuntlicker Milch and his team of whoremongering writers rivaled only old Willy hisself. So many good lines....damn them all to hell for letting it go....
Posted by: dammitjanet at July 2, 2008 11:39 AM
Lovejoy on A&E!
THAT is what this list is neglecting.
Posted by: Jay at July 2, 2008 11:44 AM
Dearest Sir Ass,
First I'd like to thank you for your reasoned response. I would like to point out that, while you thoroughly addressed my temporal issue, you completely ignored my larger point. I'm going to go a little broader and a littler deeper in the hopes you hear and understand me clearly. Simply, there is no right or wrong in this situation. There is no Righteous Best Of list of any kind, ever, anywhere. There is no formula. There is no objective reality. Period. I understand as someone studying to be a lawyer, constructing objective reality is part of your gig but as a writer of television, you know, the subject at hand, I assure you in this context, it doesn't exist.
Before we go any further, I'd like to point out the absurdity of you making these arguments before you know the last five entries. Again, undercutting your credibility, sir. I am all but sure you will still be displeased when we do come to the end but as a lawyer to be, I'd think you'd have the good sense to wait till all evidence is presented before making your closing arguments. Also, I would like to point out that it's not as though we're creating this list as we go along. It was determined in a day or two over an email back and forth and had it not required getting ten odd people to agree on something it would have taken less time. If you have the time to write a tome in the comment section, you have time to offer your own Best Of list. Had you done so, I could respond more specifically to your argument. But here we are. I am still interested in your Best Of Shows list, if it's the seasons that's the time consuming part. You've obviously got a large brain in your head and I'm genuinely curious as to what your list would be.
Now, onto your argument. At it's core, we're dealing with the difference in meaning between "Best" and "Favorite." By your definition, "Best" is determined by a) critical acclaim, b) lasting cultural impact, c) exploration of larger themes, and d) originality.
Let's start with A. What is critical acclaim if not someone deemed expert's personal opinion, their "favorite"? And by the by, no where else (outside of comicon) will you find a cabal of folks more enamored with "geek chic" than television critics. I can gaurendamnteeeeee you FNL and Veronica would be on the Best Of lists of the majority of respected TV reviewers. Go to Alan Sepinwall's blog or Mo Ryan's and click on either tag. They wax rhapsodic for days on both shows. Now, I may not being a "critic" (outside of these virtual walls that is) but I actually, you know, make TV for a living so I'm going to take the liberty of saying that affords me more qualification than any one here to define "Best Of" and I'm still singing my perspectivist tune. Best might as well be Favorite and Favorite might as well be Best. Again, this is not math or science, it's (if we're lucky) Art and there is no such thing as an objective Best.
Onto B. Could you please define "lasting cultural impact?" Television is seventy or so years old. As much as I love it, as lucky as I feel to get to go to work every day and tell stories, I have no illusions that I'm making some indelible mark on the culture. Maybe one day I'll be blessed and get to make a show like Deadwood, which I believe will live on well past my lifetime. But such things are rare. You and I will never know if Seinfeld has any real impact on the culture long term. Now, if you are defining it in more recent terms, Britney Spears has as much "cultural impact" as "Seinfeld." Ergo, this criteria is useless for our purposes. If you're going to try to come up with a determative formula, let's be specific. This also offers me the opportunity to speak to the temporal issue. You make a fair point about "front loading" based on the year of the season and not the show. I argued it the way I did as that's how I determined my picks. I started with shows I wanted to talk about, looked at their premiere dates and once I was sure they were in the time frame, picked a season. I would also argue that it's not just our list that's front loaded (or more accurately back-loaded), it's the landscape of TV. There is arguably far more quality in the last ten years of TV than in the first sixty combined.
C. Larger themes. So you'd rather Seinfeld than Veronica, then eh? I haven't even seen the latter but I suspect when it comes to "theme" it trumps a show "about nothing." I think every show on our list fulfills this requirement so I'll move on...
D. Originality. Again, puppets in space vs four assholes living in new york. Originality? I think we've covered that base.
I don't begrudge you arguing for inclusion of shows you think worthy. That's the whole point of a criticism site with comments turned on. And as I mentioned, this collective list disappoints me personally in places. It would not be MY top 20. But I don't claim MY top 20 is the only BEST Top 20. For you to argue as though there is an absolute right way to do this is absurd. Doubly so considering you refuse to offer up your perfection for us to parse. I'm always interested to hear other people's perspectives. It makes me a better writer. I draw people for a living. Understanding where you're coming from helps me do that. But what I can not abide is the notion that your direction is the only one from which to come. It's patently false.
And now I'm late for work. Apologies for any typos, I don't have the time to proof this.
Posted by: Beckylooo at July 2, 2008 12:02 PM
Everybody calm down, free whiskey and nickel pussy for everyone.
Posted by: Pookie at July 2, 2008 12:04 PM
Glad to help, TMax--I still remember the thrill of HTML-tagging for the first time. And...umm....happy motorboating!
Also, I agree with nadine; Frasier would be a dandy choice as far as sitcoms go! I may have said it here before, but I have worked on an island with only a radio to keep me company (and I don't enjoy Top 40 music). I used to listen to the local TV station on occasion, and even without the picture, Frasier was damned enjoyable. That, my friends, is the mark of a well-written TV show.
Posted by: MO(meaux) at July 2, 2008 12:26 PM
Best. Show. Ever.
Posted by: Maryscott O'Connor at July 2, 2008 1:04 PM
Deadwood is fucking awesome and is the only show my grandad and I both love with a passion, which is a particularly special achievement considering his distaste for bad language and vulgarity.
So glad this made the list. Won't be standing on anyone's neck today...
Posted by: Lisa S at July 2, 2008 1:04 PM
Wow, just read the rest of the comments...
I barely ever agree with ALL of the selections on any 'Best Of' list, but Pajiba's one has so far ticked many more boxes for me than those that have come before it. I'm in wholehearted agreement with Beckylooo, as time goes on telly quality just gets better and better...
Posted by: Lisa at July 2, 2008 1:35 PM
I was so terribly sad to see Ian McShane is a trailer for Death Race this weekend. Not just that the movie looks like crap, but no glorious mustache!!!
Posted by: Koolickle at July 2, 2008 1:47 PM
no glorious mustache!!!
I'm tellin you people, Lovejoy on A&E is obviously about to come back HARD!
Posted by: Jay at July 2, 2008 1:58 PM
TMAX: I'm glad that you've decided to discount everything based upon "he doesn't want to write his own list! HA!"
Keep in mind that the purpose of criticism is in large part to examine others work and that criticism itself has value apart from having to create competing works.
This is why people would laugh at Rob Schneider if his response to Roger Ebert's panning of "Deuce Bigalow European Gigolo" was "I don't see YOU making any movies! HA!"
Furthermore, there seems to be some large conception that I'm just trolling (strangely pushed by at least some of the people who write here, who apparently don't like anything but adoring masses) and the only way I can break that conception is to actually respond to the long arguments that come back. Writing for half an hour in the time before bed to serve that end isn't nearly the time suck it would be for me to sort out what seasons of each show were the individual best and write some small justification for each. Especially given that I would want to have some method for selecting items rather than a ramshackle "what did I like?" approach.
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 2, 2008 2:05 PM
Becky, that was very, very well done. Nice to see another lawyer/law student who isn't assholier-than-thou. I get the feeling a strong parallel could be drawn between TV show rating and Olympic judging. Sure, there may be the odd objectively definable metric with consistent results, but there's also subjective interpretation inherent in each judge, hence why there's a panel of judges to offset any dramatic skew, bias, or unsupported score. And like you so nicely pointed out (and thanks for the behind-the-curtain look), this was a committee effort done by email, and has different preferences within it. While I personally agree with Becky about the recent rise of quality compared to TV's earlier years, we would need to measure each decade or era's standards for decency, humour, show content and quality and compensate for them in our present setting - kind of like adjusting the price of houses, candy, or cars for inflation over the years. Until TV shows become purely scientific in their content and divorce themselves from their inherent human influences, numerous other confounding variables and sociological/historical settings, I daresay there'll never be unanimous agreement of an objective list of top shows. There'll always be disagreement and discussion. That's fine. That's life. Move on.
Please?
Posted by: lordhelmet at July 2, 2008 2:31 PM
Tell your god to ready for blood TMax.
Posted by: Pookie at July 2, 2008 2:36 PM
Thank you to (name escapes me) for posting the list of series already on the "Best" list.
I have to ask, what about "Dead Like Me"? I loved that show from episode one and am still disappointed it only ran three seasons.
That said, I have huge love for "Deadwood". The Doc is one of the best characters. His scene were he yells at god (begging him to take the Reverend) and relives the horror of serving in the Civil War chilled my marrow. And his dance with Jewel (after making her the boot) was brilliant.
I also have to ask, what about "Carnivale"? It should make the list, what with it being an HBO offering, right? ("Carnivale" will always be my favorite HBO series)
Posted by: MadameUgly at July 2, 2008 2:43 PM
Beckyloohoo, you say a lot of things so I'm going to respond numerically so I can keep them straight.
1. Re: "You don't know the last five entries yet":
True. But remember that this list was originally supposed to be 15 seasons and was suddenly changed right around the 13th pick. Well before then it was clear that a number of shows were going to be excluded because they hadn't been mentioned yet and certain Pajiba favorites had yet to be mentioned (such as VM). I (rightly) concluded that VM was a mortal lock and that the list was inevitably going to exclude a LOT of shows that were going to make the list far less legitimate.
Additionally I would point out that I started complaining vociferously in part because the list was expanded and I saw an opportunity to salvage the damn thing if immediate action was taken. In essence, I've been trying to participate somewhat in the process rather than sit around and bitch later.
2. Re: There is no "best":
Well, first of all that belief would sort of undercut the project title wouldn't it? Are you sure you guys don't mean "favorite?"
To respond more substantively, I'll say that the reason I keep speaking of factors to be weighed is because it is important that there be SOME sort of process by which these shows are selected. If someone selects their "best shows" list by reasoning out a number of factors and providing justifications based around those ideas the list will have some form of legitimacy because you can make comparative claims about WHY certain shows succeeded on those metrics better than others. The fact that some method is used can go a long way to escaping the trap of simply picking a list of random favorites because those are your subjective best.
As a point of contrast, one can look at the way Pajiba selected their list (apparently an e-mail exchange and everyone picked a couple with no guiding principles) and the way TIME magazine selected their list which was detailed extensively here:
http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1651341_1659152,00.html
Looking at the method (which he acknowledges can only partially solve the subjectivity problem) I would have far less problem with a list like this one even if I didn't agree with the individual selections because it's clear that thought has been given to the process and excluded shows were at least ruled out for a REASON rather than simply not selected.
Creating objective or semi-objective criteria forces you to think about these shows comparatively rather than in a vacuum. For example I think the original Pajiba 15 as it stands now would be in the unfortunate position of having to explain why Sex in the City made the list but the Sopranos didn't. I think that's a really hard sell.
3. Re: the factors: All factors are meant to be holistic in approach and weighed against one another. As a result, a show that critics loved but had no impact and no one saw would have difficulty making a list under a factored approach because it would get swamped so badly in the others despite doing well in one. Capice?
Critical Acclaim I think can be distinguished from "ley opinion" because critics presumably bring some level of objectivity and a wealth of experience to the table and can draw from that experience. Part of the reason I was so appalled by Dustin saying that Office Space, the Matrix, and Fight Club were inarguably the best movies on the Clinton era was because saying something like that makes it sound like selections by someone who has only seen the most popular 20 movies from the period. It betrays a lack of objectivity, standards by which the movies are being judged, and it certainly makes it appear that he hasn't seen all that many movies. Good critics bring these factors to bear and as a result their opinions should mean more than "Sally the Hooker" pontificating on how much she loved Herman's Head.
I think you've also construed "lasting cultural impact" too broadly. I'm not talking about lasting as in "Hammurabi's Code has really influenced legal thought." The short life of the medium has meant that there are shows that clearly had influence and shows that have been lost to the ether. Film, as a medium for fiction, is really only about 100 years old but it is appropriate to say that certain movies constituted a "moment for the genre." This is why movies such as Birth of a Nation, Citizen Kane, Pulp Fiction, Singing in the Rain, etc etc changed something about their genre or film generally and are defined as having lasting impact.
The same backward looking process can be done in terms of television. After all, Nick at Nite for years (when its time frame was limited to the 50s, 60s, and 70s) attempted to select shows on this basis because it was clear what shows would still resonate with contemporary audiences and had influence on modern programming.
This factor would clearly prefer shows like "The Simpsons" over shows like "Farscape" for reasons that are obvious. It also provides justification for a number of shows that changed their genre noticeably; for example Law and Order, like it or not, had a lasting cultural impact and changed the way legal and police procedural shows were done. In fact, I was sort of under the impression that "cultural impact" was the only justifiable reason for selecting Sex and the City.
As to Larger Themes, yes this is something that could arguably hurt a show like Seinfeld. I would say that this would be best described as the way in which the show engages its audience and explores its essential premises in a way that connects universally. The Sopranos is great because it makes the viewer empathize with a truly evil man. The Boondocks is great because it so clearly and savagely examines truths about race. This factor hurts the sitcom genre generally and formulaic shows the most.
As to Originality: I would essentially consider this a bonus factor for things that do something truly interesting. It's self-defining. This is Firefly's strongest suit by the way because it is certainly the best show I've seen at melding the Science Fiction and Western genres in a plausible way while maintaining the core of what both are about. That synthesis of large myths in storytelling is notable. I just question whether that alone could get Firefly a ranking.
4. Re: Your direction is the only one to come from:
Apparently I'm doing a bad job at explaining this, but I feel I've said this multiple times. Lets do it all caps for emphasis. I DON'T THINK MY LIST WOULD BE A DEFINITIVE LIST EITHER! I MERELY THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT A LIST HAVE A METHOD BY WHICH THE ITEMS ARE SELECTED THAT ISN'T AD-HOC AND THAT CERTAIN COMPULSORY ITEMS AREN'T LEFT OFF BECAUSE THAT WOULD MAKE THE LIST LESS LEGITIMATE.
Have I made it clear yet that my list wouldn't be inarguable? It just wouldn't have clear structural problems indicating rater bias (loading on one end) and would include most of all of the inarguables. A few oddball picks makes a list interesting. Too many oddball picks makes a list illegitimate. I fear Pajiba is going towards too many.
5. Making my own list: I've discussed this above. Look if I was getting ad revenue for putting in the effort as opposed to five people reading it as comment 80+ on a pajiba thread it would be one thing. Given that I would want to do a good job it would take a lot more time than a few e-mails. Especially given that I would have to figure out individual seasons. I also responded to TMax on this point above.
I think that covers most of the bases, and now I'm hungry.
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 2, 2008 2:45 PM
LordHelmet - I am not a lawyer (or a student of law), though when I was little, I wanted to play one on TV.
Sir Ass - I believe we've both clearly articulated our points and on many, I agree with you. I could pick nits but I won't as again, this all boils down to perspective (whether or not a rubric is implemented to mediate subjectivity, the rubric itself is subjective, so we're back to where we started). I'm sorry you are disappointed in our list. You'll always have TIME.
In closing, I'd like to make clear that I speak for no one else here, staff or commenter. My need to respond to your comments came less out of your argument itself than the haughty and hyperbolic tone you took. A tone you've since corrected in our last couple of exchanges. I recognize this place is prized by many for it's "snarkiness" and therefor you were not out of line in acting the asshole but I'm more sensitive than most.
Thank you for a lively discussion and enjoy your lunch.
Posted by: Beckylooo at July 2, 2008 3:48 PM
In essence, I've been trying to participate somewhat in the process rather than sit around and bitch later.
Oooookay, now it's all clear.
There is/was no audience participation, as it were, in constructing this or any other list. It seems like the staff expanded the count to include some of the runners-up, maybe after some hang-wringing amongst themselves, kinda like how the advent of mix cd's has shortened the running time and the editing process has gotten even crueler. Overlapping the edges gains me a few seconds here and there, but it's no TDK 110 Minutes. Tough decisions have to get made.
Now we can all move on.
(seriously, people at behindthesofa are doing that replying-to-each-sentence shit this week too in their end-of-the-season nerviness. Ti-ring)
Posted by: Jay at July 2, 2008 4:00 PM
I love Deadwood and am happy to read anything about the show! I love your breakdown of the word "fuck" in theatrics, Beckylooo. Happened to come across the first episode of the first season the other day and was transported. An excellent show with amazing staying power.
Posted by: Tina at July 2, 2008 4:01 PM
Beckyloohoo: No worries. I have long since discovered that on Pajiba it is ok to be bitchy and scathing as long as you agree with the reviewer. Scathing and bitchy criticism of the website's choices provokes a disproportionately negative reaction.
After all, if Pajiba made a joke about Arli$$ being an acceptable choice I'm sure it would have been received as at least being benignly playful rather than as a grave insult.
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 2, 2008 6:48 PM
MadameUgly: I wish Dead Like Me had 3 seasons. Sadly cancelled after only 2. The show was excellent. Whether it was a best 20 of the last 20 is of course a little dicier.
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 2, 2008 6:49 PM
Wow...I really have no problem with Sir Ass consistently calling out reviewers and the site itself for what he determines to be major defects. I just think it is a bit weird to care so much about the legitimacy of a "best of" list. I, for one, think that "best of" implies that the determinitive factors used to compile the list will be in the subjective hands of those persons who made the list. That is why I don't give a shit about the Maxim Hot 100 lists, etc. but will read and enjoy "best of" lists from sources I find entertaining or interesting. Although I don't think that these lists ever could be made with truly objective criteria, I wouldn't want to read that anyway. I want these people to make their subjective choices and then explain to me why they think it belongs in its appropriate ranking. I can then agree, disagree, or not care. A rigid attempt at objectivity would probably give me a bunch a bullshit about how "you might not like Law and Order, you may think it is formulaic and stupid, but it undoubtedly had an siginificant impact on television and therefore is the best show from the past 20 years!". I'll pass on that. I really enjoy many of the writers on Pajiba and want to see what shows they think are the best and why.
By the way, I think the transcript from this comment section is a clear example of why I hate to tell people I am an attorney. No wonder people think we are all douchebags.
Posted by: Handel at July 2, 2008 7:27 PM
Side note: Sir Ass, I did laugh out loud at your Arli$$ comment. Anytime I think of Arli$$ it reminds me of Norm McDonald doing his brilliant David Letterman impression and asking, "Do you enjoy the Arliss program, Paul?"
Posted by: Handel at July 2, 2008 7:29 PM
Here's MY issue with Kicky:
You've made your point. Repeatedly, in several different common sections, ad nauseam. Clearly, the majority of people disagree - whether this is due to everyone being hive-minded sycophants, or because, maybe they simply think your argument is silly, is irrelevant. Whether you're right or wrong is actually barely even relevant anymore.
You've argued it vociferously and repeatedly and occasionally quite eloquently, and everyone seems to understand your argument. Few agree with it, but they certainly understand. Numerous folk have explained their reasons for disagreeing, repeatedly and eloquently as well. So the question becomes:
Why do you keep bringing it up?
Because you're self-absorbed and desperately need the attention? If not, then... why? You've made your point. Why continue to post the same tired issue if not to continually draw attention to yourself? Clearly you're not going to get this wonderful retraction or name change or ANYTHING from the writers. So you must be doing it for the attention.
That, my dear kicky, is why people call you a troll.
Posted by: TK at July 2, 2008 9:27 PM
Beckyloo,
I told Sirkickyass (damn that name is hard for me to type) that he had the absolute last word with me, and I let his comments stand as they are and will not comment further regarding them. But you interjected, and thus I felt the need to respond to you.
I didn't expect I'd be here, 12 or so hrs later, still reading new posts; however, I'm so damned impressed with your last articulation, Beckyloo, which displayed a passion, integrity and simple honesty that is at the very core of this Pajiba staff.
It sounds damn silly when I say it out loud to myself, but telling you is easy: Dustin is one helluva great human being. His writing has alternately surprised me, confused me, totally had me laughing out loud for entire mornings, and inspired me in ways I can't describe, especially during the critical period after my mother died (a whole different sob story). To know his background, and how you'd never have known otherwise unless he shared it, is merely a seasoning that only enriches all of his writing. I'm probably twice his age, and I aspire to write like Dustin Rowles.
Ted, TK, Ranylt & so many others have shared personal, painful memories in order to be as openly raw and honest in their reviews even more than we Pajibans expect them to be. We, the commenters ourselves, have oftentimes revealed more of our own personal demons on this site than we probably would with even our closest ones (and God bless Pink, btw).
My point is, when someone has the very gall to attack this brilliant, articulate and (most importantly) always provocative crew, whose only purpose is to entertain us with smart, informative, readable, cutting-edge reviews and fresh perspectives on film history, as being some kind of geek-clique or self-important group unto its own that simply favors some shows over others & expects everyone else to toe the (complimentary) line, it's simply inaccurate and misses the entire point:
I believe I've earned my entry into this group I admire so much simply by being courteous and honestly giving praise to articles, reviews and/or commentators who feel the same way I do and articulate it better than I have time to catch up with, old fogey that I am.
I think Brian's story of his first true TV gig in Hollywood is fascinating, & I want to know all the details; I wanted to be all mushy when Alex revealed how absolutely happy she was in her exhilerating correspondence, to tell her to hold on to that ecstatic point in time and remember every detail, because those are so precious to you when you're older yadayadayada (I went to bed instead)
I actually care for these people, even the ones I hate, because, dammit, I just can't wait to see what youse guys are gonna say next.
The "List" isn't stupid, misguided or even close to being a subject of such protestations as you've been subjected to here-
Pajiba is a personality unto itself. You either get it or you don't.
Personally, I HATE reading about Murder Tanks, Godtopus, the oncoming zombie invasion. But I'm definitely in the minority here, and am quite happy to see these paramilitary secrets shared, whether I want to read about it or not. Likewise, if commentors can talk about the history of Looms for post after post, what business is it of mine to interject in any way? It's a goddam COMMENTS section, for KFC's sake! I don't connect with every single personal reminiscence that some commenters (myself included) put out there. I have no idea what "teh" means. I have to put off reading Ted's Booze Cinephile reviews, 'cause I don't appreciate them as much when I'm in the middle of a hangover. But a week isn't complete for me until I read his latest offering. I disagree with at least HALF of the 20 Best TV Seasons blah blah blah. But I immensly enjoy reading the reviewer's fresh perspective. If I'm not that interested (Veronica Mars) then I skip on to the next review/ comments section. I'll certainly catch your next review; I just don't need to trash you for writing about a subject I'm totally ignorant of.
Anyway, what the fuck else is new? Rolling Stone came out with a 100 greatest guitar solos list a few weeks ago, Entertainment Weekly had it's own best of the Top 100 in every shitty category you could imagine in their last 25(?) Years list - who remembers this shit past next Labor Day? And do you agree with every one/i> of their choices??? If so, I submit that you're one fucked-up, pre-programmed bastard who is lost to mankind's future.
But the fact is clear: I don't spend as much time on ANY site more than this one I've come to love and know so well. Every female Pajiba contributor is automatically a sexy beast- your comments are incredibly entertaining, and appropriately erotic when the occasion demands it. I don't need to see you to lust for you, even though I myself am handsome enough to make Josh Brolin look like Pee Wee Herman(Just to be upfront with ya, peeps).
But all of that, and so much more, is why I, and apparently so many others, keep coming back.
Becky, I'm with you, I really enjoyed the literary sparring these last two days- it's cathartic and leaves no residual damage. But thank you for the advice anyhow, MO. I encourage that clear-thinking from you in the future, and I never discount your opinion.
As for the rest of you Pajibanites, I still am proud to be a part of this community, whose very existence keeps me coming back every day.
So Becky, I more than understand your frustration at feeling the need to respond to every comment you feel is unfair/untruthful/rude or what have you.
You have done so in admirable fashion.
My point is this: I haven't been a faithful reader for over 3 years because I owe any debt to these people; I read it because I enjoy it. I don't scan for inaccuracies to make some bloviated comment about them. If their writing grew tiresome to me, like the Nat'l Lampoon magazine, The Onion, Little Boy's Life (those letters to the editors must have been made up, I really believe that now) and all the rest, I simply stopped reading them.
People forget the days when we couldn't give instantaneous opinions/responses to, say, a newspaper review, or the latest Siskel/Ebert TV debate on PBS. Pajiba could very well have been no different from those formats, just printing what they want to print and refusing any outside commentary or oppositional point of view.
But to make an already over-long letter to you, Beckyloo, even longer, please allow me to add my own personal slogan for your consideration:
I love the reviews, but I stay for the comments
And it's your reading audience that gives your site such an irrestible urge to keep coming back.
Don't change a thing, Beckyloo.
(btw, I thought it was made quite clear in your original review that, for anyone who watched the series, Jane just plain "loved" Hickock, no matter what connotation anyone else chooses to assign it.)
Aw hell, almost forgot to mention that I really, truly loved the back-and-forth we engaged with sirkicky yesterday. I'm usually too damn tired and apathetic during the summer months to invest my time in this kind of thing, but it was nice to pull myself out of a hole and do some fun writing for a change. So I actually enjoyed the debate, but I might lay low for awhile, if only because of this damn oppressive heat.
'Night, everyone
Posted by: TMax at July 2, 2008 9:49 PM
Uhhh....Beckyloohoo, I'd bet getting a restraining order on TMax if I were you. He's apparently an older man who's calling you a sexy beast. I think we're about two plot points away from torture porn.
TK: I think you're vastly overestimating how much I've posted. I've pointed out some abysmal mistakes in a few DVD release columns (saying things came out when they didn't or that they were late) and I talked about Dustin's ridiculous comments in his Wanted review. Most famously I guess has been two prolonged discussions about this list, and here I only went in depth because it was clear that TMax wanted to engage and didn't know what the base point was. That means I talked about it twice. That's not exactly posting every day about it.
Outside of those recent events I think I posted once about Le Samourai (it sucks), the Oscars (love it every year, especially montages of dead people), and Children of Men (overrated).
So that's 3 longer conversations over the course of 3 weeks, a couple rants on DVD release columns and a handful of other posts spread out over a year.
Clearly I'm so starved for attention that I'm posting constantly and trying to make it all about me.
Posted by: Sirkickyass at July 2, 2008 11:12 PM
HBO were right to cancel Deadwood. The series jumped the shark at the end of Series 2. I mean, a fucking wedding. That was just waaaaay too soap opera for me.
But I agree Series 1 was some of the best television ever.
Posted by: rocky at July 3, 2008 3:35 AM
Aw, that was sweet, TMax.
Posted by: Loob at July 3, 2008 4:17 AM
Cheers, TMax--I'm glad you and Beckylooo didn't take my silly advice, or we all would have missed a spirited debate.
Sirkicky, I stand by my comment from the Wanted thread--if you feel the site's going down the tubes, you're not obligated to keep reading. However, I hope you stick around if you're going to contribute constructively, and this includes a little rabble-rousing (though perhaps you might consider streamlining your comments a smidge?)
Now, I'm going to take my sexy-beast self to work. Rowr.
Posted by: MO(meaux) at July 3, 2008 6:52 AM
Fair enough, Kicky. For the record, I wasn't talking about your posts in general, only as related to this series.
I suppose I'm just getting a little tired of the debate - it's not that I don't enjoy discourse, and this has been pretty intelligent discourse at that. It's just that the subject has run its course. Neither side appears to be gaining any new support, the arguments have been elucidated clearly and repeatedly, and it just seems pointless and somewhat self-serving at this point.
Posted by: TK at July 3, 2008 8:24 AM
Aw, TMax, that was beeyoutiful. You brought more than a few tears to my eye with that sincere and touching tribute. I'm not among the prolific commenters, but I, too, read each and every (work)day and follow the threads to their bitter ends. And in the interest of full disclosure: I rarely see movies in the theater and don't have cable or a netflix account. I come here because I enjoy the community. It's nice to see that others recognize that this site has become more than just the sum of its parts.
Posted by: elizabeth at July 3, 2008 9:44 AM
TMax, thank you for beautifully articulating what most of us are thinking. I've been a lurker for about 3 years...with the occasional comment of a sentence of two. It's still the first website I hit when I get to work. One day, I'll comment enough to be in the elite Pajibans. =)
(oh my god, I just did the bold thing for the first time, and I am over the moon about it!!!!)
Posted by: jamiepants at July 3, 2008 9:53 AM
Thank you so much, MO, elizabeth & jamiepants, for your very kind comments.
You'll probably never read this, because I waited too long to respond, but I wanted it on record how great most of the commentors are here, like you, and do I deny that it's awesome to be complimented by people like you on Pajiba? It's really the very best I can get in my otherwise mundane life.
Happy 4th to you all, and remember that I will remember the kind words you've all given.
Oh, just an afterthought: could you ladies kindly provide your chest measurements so that I may include them in the filthy fantasies I'll soon be-
Aaawwww, sheeitt, I blew it right there didn't I? I keed, I keed, you of such good-natured fortitude.
Sorry. If you were addicted to this site like I am, you would have no life whatsoever. And I'm on, like, my 8th, 9th beer? Is that "macho posturing?" No, the only memorbale posturing I'll be engaging in tonight will be bent over the porcelain puking my guts out. But that's how we celebrate our good ol' Independence Day, eh?
I'm sorry whoever's reading this- I get these impulses to just write and write between 4-6 month periods, and if you ARE still reading (or re-checking, as I've obviously done tonight), well, I'm pathetic enough to indulge any audience that may have me.
Sincerely
Posted by: TMax at July 3, 2008 7:53 PM
I wish all of you a Happy 4th of July, for heavens sake please try to avoid blowing your fucking fingers off as you partake in celebrating our nation's independence from sanity.
Posted by: Pookie at July 4, 2008 12:58 AM
Top Ten Television characters, Ever...
(in no particular order)
Al Swearengen
Eric Cartman
Homer Simpson
Hawkeye Pierce
The Fonz
Titus Pullo/Lucius Vorenus
Fred Sanford
Captain Kirk
Reverend Jim from Taxi
Jeannie (from I dream of genie...because I loved her from the day i saw that damn show)
Posted by: Eric at July 4, 2008 3:25 AM
Honorable mention to...
George Costanza
Tony Soprano
J.R. Ewing
Schneider
J.J. Walker
Peter Scolari's character on Bosom Buddies
Chachi
Jimmy James
Huggy Bear
Posted by: Eric at July 4, 2008 3:30 AM
Forgot Tattoo, from Fantasy Island.:)
Posted by: Eric at July 4, 2008 3:38 AM
thanks for an insightful, okay really quite brilliant review. Nail=hit on head. I just finished watching the series this evening, and feel bereft that I will not be visiting Deadwood again, but I totally understand the timing of its end.
Posted by: debkakes at July 9, 2008 1:18 AM
Sorry, but Deadwood is the lesser of the two because it lacks the Dickensian aspect.
Posted by: Leee at July 11, 2008 3:52 PM