Pajiba

This thread is RACIST, I'm deeply offended!

Younger generations are definitely less racist but they either inherit bigotry from people they look up to or they foster it within their own peer groups. Tack on ignorance and bigotry, while perhaps not intentionally malicious, festers unchallenged. Younger types may not discriminate as much on the basis of skin colour, but you can bet your boots ethnicity, accents, religions, funny customs, etc, all still heavily skew perceptions and interaction. Especially in a fear-mongering society. Things have gotten a lot better than they were, but there's still a very long way to go.

Doesn't exist anymore? I'll have to let my Aryan brothers know that our marketing campaigns have been grossly ineffective.

Racism will always exist because there will always be people who discriminate based on ignorance or just plain laziness. Is it less prevalent or at least better hidden today than even 10 years ago? Yes.

Nope, it's alive and well. Work in a "blighted" neighborhood in a dying, postindustrial city and you see it every day. Even in the rarefied air of the arts industry, kids my age (mid to late 20s) come downtown to get wasted at the club scene but can't imagine living or working around all "those people," out on the streets, trying to make a buck by selling you a newspaper.

Hmmmmmmmm is racism dead for those of us younger than 40? I would definitly say that it exists, especially in my area of the world. I think that people are more conscious of not saying racist comments outright, but the sentiments are still strong and alive. It's all over the place, even in comment threads. Using terms such as "you people," "those people," and stereotypes happens quite frequently in general conversation. I think that racist sentiments have just taken on a new, more politically correct language.
I usually hate to talk about the subject of racism with friends or family because I get pretty lectury about it. Especially about representation and social constructions! UGH.
Anyway, I'm off to look for unicorns. I saw this little woodland bunny that told me if i just follow the rainbow, I'll make it to the unicorn. But do not touch the horn. They don't like that.

Racism is dead? Will somebody please tell that to the security guard following my no criminal record having, well paid, educated azz around the store that? Please?

should have been "the Obama campaign"

I think classism is often misidentified as racism, although the connection between race and poverty is certainly historically and currently very significant.

Katrina destroyed the impoverished sector of New Orleans, which was filled mostly with impoverished black people. When Kanye said Bush doesn't care about black people he should have said Bush doesn't care about poor people.

That said, yes, there's still racism today, but it's more insidious than the lynch-mob type of racism that has defined race-relations in our country for so long. Instead, it's mostly manifested in the vast economic disparity between whites and non-whites. We're fortunate to live in a society where more blatant examples of bigotry rarely go unquestioned. Just look at Michael Richards!

No, it exists. will.i.am is just an idiot. His definition of racism must be 'getting sprayed by water hoses' or something.

I don't see how anyone can think it is dead. Racism is institutionalized in this country. I think it's just hard for a white person (or will.i.am) to see it, especially in a liberal state.

For instance, I use to work at a video store a few years back. One of my co-workers was a white girl who was incredibly nice, had black friends, and was generally a decent human being. However, when a black person entered the store and peruse the DVD section I would notice her pay a little more attention to them than she would a white person perusing the DVDs. She did so because she thought that the black people were stealing stuff, and admitted this to me and other co-workers.

The irony of this is every single instance of theft in that store a white person was the culprit, usually a white female.

Plus, I mean, the South. That's pretty concrete evidence right there it exists. And the Republican Party.

Kids today are definitely more cognizant of racial issues. They know they should be tolerant. They know when they are being bigoted in their opinions. But is racism dead? Sorry, alive and kicking.

Racism, when seen from a distance, may appear dying, but when confronted up close and personal the dynamics change. Not for everyone. Maybe not for you elitist Pajibans (you know it, embrace it), but in the south, in the heartland, in the cities, there are many who still cling to their pocketbooks when a black person walks near, or who scan their surroundings a little more closely when a person of middle-eastern descent is around, or who wonders why the hell Asians can't drive a freaking car when out and about on our nations roads.

Just this morning I had to break up an altercation outside the office building. Apparently, an Indian cut someone off in the parking lot. The guy who was cut off shouted after him, "Why don't you go back to your own country?"

Sad, but alive.

Nah it's not dead, more's the pity. Just hidden better.

it's complicated though.... black people have gotten a pretty bad deal over the years, but in some ways, there's a double standard that works in their favor too. Alot of black people are racist too, but it's seen as a positive thing - pride in their heritage, etc

What would happen if there was a white person only awards show (like the soul train awards)? There'd be an uproar.

And what about the people who will vote for Obama simply because he's black, and not because of his policies or experience? Aren't they just as bad as the people who won't vote for him because he's black?

I do think things are becoming more toelrant, and over the years the concern over race will be minimized... but it ain't happened yet, and it's going to take alot of people on both sides changing the way they think about things.

I think that as long as there are morons, there will always be racists.

Lane Honda,
"this strong genetic component to intelligence"???

Sources, please, because otherwise you sound like you are spouting eugenics nonsense. Please show me examples of reputable studies where these statistics exist - and show me the margin of error, and account for any bias in the statistics.

In short, statistics without context don't mean shit, and GOD I am so sick of hearing about people's "White Guilt" being exploited and "racism" being put in scare quotes! I agree with Macafee above in that many issues of class get conflated with race, and we miss finding ways to true solutions by not distinguishing between the two, but HONESTLY, Lane, do you really think the problem is smarter The White Man is being oppressed by the intellectually inferior Brown People?

Racism is alive and well, instead of white sheets people now just go online where they can spew their hate anonymously.

oh fuck no. Lane, you are an idiot, using psuedo science to justify your own bigotry. IQ tests are actually a rather poor measure of intelligence, and the sort of studies you are talking about fail to take into account factor like access to good education (you wanna argue that that doesn't have an effect on adult IQ?), the fact that people's test scores can be affected by subtle social cues (there are legitimate and beautiful studies that show that women, for instance, perform just as well on math tests as men when they are encouraged before hand, but perform considerably less well when told their scores are going to be compared to men). Social studies on humans should always always always be taken with a grain of salt because it is impossible to separate genetic factors from social ones.

Further to my comment that bigotry won't die: I believe that we all have a little corner (or big corner, in some cases) in our souls that is bigoted, racist, what have you. I think the key is in recognizing that corner and trying your best not to let it dictate your thoughts and deeds.

As for racism not being dead: one only need talk to my sister. She is Canadian-born and white. Her husband is Mauritian, with a Chinese ancestry. If her husband is not with her, she frequently gets asked where she adopted her sons from.

I happened to catch the last fifteen minutes of Bill Maher and I'm shocked to hear will.i.am said anything of substance. All I heard him going on about was faith, and his grandmother's faith and how he wouldn't be here if it wasn't for her faith. I was hoping Bill Maher would just slap him.

As far as racism, while I don't think it's dead, I do agree my generation's view of African Americans is very different than that of my parents and grandparents generation.

When I was fourteen I had a crush on a Cape Verdean and my grandmother actually told me to stick to my own kind - apparently she forgot that, unlike her, I'm not Irish, Scottish, English and all other kinds of caucasion...my biological father was from Mexico and more than likely illegal until my mother married.

And it's disgusting how people, most of which are in that over 40 group, would never vote for Obama because he's black. WTF?

I'd say it's less for youth today, but I still know a lot of people that inherit that kind of hate from their parents. They do get more flak for it these days though, so hopefully it'll die out.

Racism is still alive and well, it's just hidden better, as some posters have said. Are things easier? Yes. Are some things worse? Possibly.

I can admit that I didn't experience obvious blatant racism growing up, despite being a Black girl in a predominantly White neighborhood. It was open & diverse, but still, racism is hidden. You can tell that people don't mean to be, like teachers & other people in authority telling you how "articulate/well-spoken" you are, and yet you never hear this said about anyone else. It always gets me how I was raised in the same neighborhood, played the same games, ate the same food, went to the same schools and read the same books as any other child but only me and 2 other Black kids in my class heard that phrase. It doesn't surprise me that I've heard that used many times in reference to Obama. And Oprah. And Colin Powell. I believe that's an example of learned behavior.

(more later, but I have to get back to work)

Prejudice is inherent because human beings are genetically programmed to categorize and oversimplify. A lot of other unsavory things are also inherent. But we're aware of them, and we take steps, on a daily basis, to curb them -- hence, civilization.

Nowadays racism is not legislated, and you can sue for it, so people it doesn't affect take less notice (people who don't venture out of their ethnic group very much, for example). But attitudes and beliefs can't be legislated, and lack of interaction fosters ignorance.

The label "racist" has too much power as well. Anybody can make a mistake, anybody can say or do something hurtful (in a racist way or some other way) -- we are all in a state of growth. But because people are so terrified of being branded "racist," as if it were a lifelong scarlet letter, people are all more interested in being perceived as innocent and going "I'm not racist, but..." than in working together to solve the problems. (I quote Avenue Q -- "Everyone's a Little Bit Racist, Sometimes.") So people who complain are accused of "always looking to be offended" or "playing the race card." We need to internalize the phrase "I didn't realize that was offensive, I'm sorry, and I will try to remember that next time," and scrap the phrase "I'm not racist, but..."

And for all its liberalism, Hollywood is a horrific offender at fostering this crap. Nobody wrote about it in reviews, but everyone in the theater *I* attended noticed when, in "Cloverfield" about eight huge black men were the ONLY ones shown looting an electronics store in the face of grave danger. The blond hero went to get vital parts for a cellphone to contact loved ones, and they made sure to strategically position another small blond amongst the eight huge black men carrying really practical survival items like plasma TVs, but the message was loud and clear, as it always is.

Sadly, possibly the main bastion of positively portrayed racial harmony in the US is the "High School Musical" franchise, which scares the bejeezuz out of me.

"I think when people hear "racism" they think "against African Americans"

(Awesome point, LibraryLiz.)

"And what about the people who will vote for Obama simply because he's black, and not because of his policies or experience? Aren't they just as bad as the people who won't vote for him because he's black?"

LOL - No. Wanna know why? Because I guarantee every one of those people has already voted for somebody white at one point.

Aaarrrg. alright, this is the last reply I'm gonna dignify Lane with: if it is a study on human beings, which the exception of purely physiological studies (although not always even those, since environment has an impact on that too), it is social science because our behaviors, abilities, etc are inextricably influenced by the societies we develop within. You cannot study pure genetics because you cannot remove the effect of society. You have served your purpose of proving that racism not only still exists, but racists are willing to grasp any straw to support their delusions of superiority, now go away asshat.

Oh, Lane, stop bandying your ignorance about like a banner. Yes, IQ tests measure intelligence, but they are also skewed by OTHER factors, such as education and socioeconomic status.

The problem with "studies" such as the one you quoted are that it is incredibly difficult to separate genes from environment in these cases. Are the children of these "genetically smart" parents smart because of the genes, or because of a nurturing environment geared to learning?

You're just confirming your status as an unapologetic racist.

At least I can rest easy: my nephews are all white or white-chinese. That means they'll be smart and successful, right?

"Is racism dead?"

Clearly, you've never tried to go through an airport with me.

Racism is not dead, and it surprises me that will.i.am would make such a claim. What country is he living in?

I have spoken to several people my age and younger who state outright that they will not vote for Obama simply because he is a black man. For them, it is not about the issues or policies, just the color of his skin. It's sad.

Going off LibrayLiz - "I think when people hear "racism" they think "against African Americans"

The term "Reverse Racism" perfectly illustrates that line of thinking. Racism is racism. There are no reversies.

Lynch -- I'm not one for online gaming but I've heard plenty of stories about racist language thereabouts. Good point.

Well, of course not, Dustin just wanted a new kind of argument. Politics wear you out eventually and you need a break.

If you think racism is dead you're probably white.

Mexicans are taking our jobs? Oh yeah, my job IS sleeping all day.

"Mr. Pea shares a first name with several prominent black sports stars. He is a pasty-skinned, blond-haired, green-eyed dutch boy. His best friend is a black-haired, black-eyed, brown guy from Pakistan who has a traditionally German name. People constantly tell the two of them that they've introduced themselves wrong. As if they forgot their own names."

Pea -- would you really consider that "racism," or just ignorance/overgeneralization/oversimplification (that can be corrected, and isn't really intended to hurt)?

Not justifying it, but I do think that to label it racism just brings on the guilt that stops people from listening when they're confronted with it.

For example, if you had made such a mistake, would you feel guilty? (I would say you shouldn't, as long as you backed off when corrected.)

It's nitpicking, but I do find that as a black woman I have to be fairly silvertongued at all times so as not to get tagged "angry," "belligerent," and so on. Now if someone were shocked at my name, I might let it go, because it is indeed true that certain names go with certain ethnicities and languages (less so in the US and, I assume, in Canada). It would be another if people assumed negative things, such as that your Pakistani friend were unintelligent, or didn't speak English, or carrying dynamite.

Am I assuming too much?

"People constantly tell the two of them that they've introduced themselves wrong. As if they forgot their own names."

Oh, I missed that part. Yeah, that's rude. :-)

40 years, people.

It's only been 40 years since we still had some form of institutionalized segregation in the United States. If you think that it only takes 40 years to fix the echoes and after effects of that, you are seriously deluded. I've heard the words like nigger, spic, chink, gook and more used by people my age... and younger... all over the country, not just the south or the north. To even entertain the thought that racism is dead, for any generation, is to tempt ourselves into becoming less vigilant against it.

And this is just the United States. Where I was born, we are 15 years removed from institutionalized racism. 15 years. 15 years ago I couldn't drink at the same fountain or swim at the same beach as the rest of you in my home country.

Is racism dead? Even entertaining the thought is nothing less than dangerous.

Before people who are bad at math want to claim that they know black people who have a 150 IQ, or they know whites who are morons - I'm sure you do. It's about statistics, not individual variation.

Lane Honda>> Where to begin with this idiocy? I worked as a statistician and was top mathematics student in my college department, so I'm hardly "bad at math."

You're exactly correct that it's about statistics. Ever heard of codependent variables? The first rule of making a statistical study that's informative in the least is to identify all dependent variables that can skew the result.

Let me break it down for you, because you are obviously not good at math.

Someone happens to be black. Being black in this country means that it's more likely that you are economically disadvantaged. That's just an unfortunate fact - a ripple effect from our shameful history. Being economically disadvantaged means that you are less likely to be exposed to a good education, whether at home or in schooling. And finally, not being exposed to a good education makes it more likely that you will score low on an IQ test. I don't care how "pure" you might think IQ testing is; there is a component to it that is influenced by education, whether that be practice in test-taking or simple exercising of the brain.

Show me a study that successfully parses all the societal and cultural factors that are inexorably linked to race, and then perhaps I'll listen.

Darth and others,

You act as if the scientists looking at this don't know how to do studies that cancel out non-genetic factors (like education and class). They have. But I know, there is not enough evidence to convince you, because you know (in your heart) you are right.
I don't see why emotion needs to clouds the facts - saying "X on average is less intelligent than Y" does not mean "X is worth less than Y" or "Y is justified to discriminate against X". Although it may mean "Throwing more of Y's money at X may not fix everything".
Here's a good summary: http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2006/02/world-of-difference-richard-lynn-maps.php
As long as calling someone a racist is successfully used as a substitute for actually addressing the issues, racism will be alive and well.

I had a question come up at work, and I have not come to a resolution. I am a white female. If someone is looking for a co-worker, and asks what that person looks like(so as to identify the right person), is it racist to include the person's race in the description? Example "pretty black girl with short hair,"etc. If the person being sought is white, I am less likely to give race as a descriptor. Is that an unconscious expression of racism, or just lazy descibing skills?

Just wanted to say that I know how you feel replica. I need to learn to chill out because I'm super sensitive about being perceived as racist.

That any one person can judge, condemn, or hate someone based purely on the color of skin, or culture is disgusting, vile, and sad.

Fundamentally we are all the same whether one person is smarter, richer, or taller. We all crave companionship, love, fairness, justice, comfort, food, sun, water, etc...

I don't want to gather you all around the campfire and sing, but can't we all just love or hate each other based solely on personality?

There's casual, everyday racism (i.e. my friend from graduate school and I going into a store in NYC and only his bag being forcibly checked) and broad, epic racism whereby shit that happens to non-white, non-Western people is somehow less tragic (Hurricane Katrina).

"Gods and Clods" theory, anyone?

I meant that in a purely sexual way of course.

As for Lane, I have no idea the point she/he was trying to make in the first place. My husband is Mexican and he's fucking brilliant and I mean that in the literal sense. His IQ is much higher then mine, even though as a "white" girl I should (according to Lane) have the higher IQ.

It's okay though because I make up for it in other ways. If ya know what I'm sayin'....

I imagine that most people would like to go through their day and think that everyone gets along and shit and racism doesn't exist anymore. But honestly, white people who walk along a street even in SF look behind them, see a black person and walk away even faster...especially Asian and white women. I'm not saying this is completely wrong or anything or that all Asian and white women are racist, but the media has influenced a whole lot of our beliefs about people of color (and especially black people), especially the one pretending that racism doesn't exist, but then something so blatantly racist happens and then there's loads of denial of it even being racist. It's called shame people and it's ok. We're all racist without realizing it every day. I had to read this book in Grad school called Overcoming Our Racism, it as actually quite good but I couldn't really fathom the fact that I was also racist at some point in my life. I've learned to accept that we have preconceptions about other people and what their lives are like according to their culture, race, or belief systems. It changes when you get to know each person on an individual basis that these stereotypes get knocked down eventually.

rlr260, I don't think it's racist to acknowledge that someone is black, Indian, Chinese, white or otherwise. There's something totally PC and whitewashing of our culture if we cannot use race, culture, or certain physical characteristics to describe someone. And there is such thing is being too PC...that sort of ultra-liberal attitude annoys me so much!

Oh the sadness! Yes .. there is no denying that racism/sexism/otherism exists in huge ways. A lot of these posts make me sad - especially the threads to the "intelligence test" things. Geeze. Have you read anything in the last few years? Education and the way it is administered .. check it. I am a white girl .. white with a dark olive skin ... my ancestors were hated when they came to America and still it is OK to make jokes about them. My heart wishes the best for all of us. Everything I say seems trite however true.

"Example "pretty black girl with short hair,"etc. If the person being sought is white, I am less likely to give race as a descriptor. Is that an unconscious expression of racism, or just lazy descibing skills?"

Well, there are MORE of you. Blacks are 11 percent of the population in the U.S. If you were Japanese and living in Tokyo, you wouldn't tell people to look for the Japanese guy (even if there are quite a few other ethnicities hanging around in Tokyo!) because it simply wouldn't be helpful. Now if you went to some subsection of Nigeria, it would be a different story, and if you said "look for the pretty black girl" when surrounded by 1600 of them, you'd actually be hindering communication.

I don't get mad about that in real life when you are trying to give concise directions to someone else.

If you were writing a novel, though, where the point is descriptive creativity, I'd consider it extremely lazy and wonder if you thought we all looked alike.

But how could we experience Diversity Day if we didn't see color?

Look. Here's the thing. I'm half asian and half white and although it's incredibly insensitive and not at all politically correct, I make some of the most racist asian jokes and guess what. They're funny! All my friends make fun of asians and I think it's hilarious. I mean, hell, my nickname is 'Charlie'.... I think some people just need to lighten up a little bit.

True, I haven't been (knowingly) persecuted for being yellow and I do believe racism still exists, but what also exists is an extreme form of sensitivity to 'racist' remarks. I'm certainly not talking about black people getting pulled over by the cops without reason. I know that and other forms of true racism are still out there, but I'm going to venture to say that it's nothing like it was 50 years ago.

So, please.... just pick your battles. Lane, you're fighting a losing battle. No one here's gonna let you off, so just admit your defeat. Regardless of whether what you say is true or not, there will always be social inequality. That's all you had to say. Bringing stupid, ass backwards science was where you made the wrong move. But oh well. No big deal. I doubt you yourself are racist, you're just prejudiced like everyone else in the world. Everyone else, just get over it.

Wow... Lane got all bitchy. Meow!

I'm going to state once again that you don't have a point. I'm not quite sure why you even started down the path of black people in general have lower I.Q's the white people and white people lower then Asians.

I won't speak on behave of Barbado, but it's not even about if your right or wrong. The point is what do you do with that information? Huh? What does it matter if Black people in general have 5 IQ points less then white people? I just don't get the point your trying to make and how it relates to racism.

White people didn't/don't hate black people because their smarter. They do it because their ignorant and hateful... Full of spite and feeling inadequate. Same goes for anyone else that buys into stereotypes and propaganda.

So shove your faulty facts up your ass and let's call it a day.

Virenda, I think most women (all races) are more scared of black men attacking or raping them then any other race in the U.S. (in particular). The roots of this fear are both historical and social in my mind. I recall a friend of mine complaining of the fear of living next to black guys in her dorm...she is Asian. I'm not saying that all Asian women are scared of black men, I know plenty that date black men too. But I think we're trained from an early part of our lives as children by our parents and grandparents to fear certain races, especially blacks (and this is due to the media, history, perhaps someone being raped or assaulted by a black person and not the entire black race either!). It's up to us to undo this programming as it is not beneficial to us to fear people based on racial differences (this is merely my opinion). Just because there are elements in a certain culture or race that are unseemly and dangerous does not mean that the individual black person is! Even white people are dangerous...Dahmer, the Unabomber, Nazis are great examples of this!

Oh and ciji, are you sure those questions weren't being made in jest? I don't for one second believe that anyone in this nation believes that Obama will make it legal for a black man to rape a white woman.

That is so preposterous to think that someone saying that was being serious. And if they were, obviously, they're cracked and in the same way, should be dismissed as if they were joking anyway.

Yes, it still exists, though it seems like the younger peeps are less likely to act like they're proud of it. My (high school aged) brother still lets slip crap about "the Mexicans" and I still tell him to shut the frick up, but he's still being influenced by my redneck dad. I think college will help him wake up a little more.

Then again, there were plenty of racist jerks when I went to college, and a few classes on cultural awareness didn't help. I think racist thoughts once in a while, then feel shocked. I'm supposed to be educated, after all, but I think for some of us, it's pretty ingrained.

Yeah, it still exists, just like sexism/genderism (seriously, it's still news if a celeb is gay? You've got to be kidding me), just like classism (all the trailer park jokes, all the ghetto jokes, it's all picking on people who aren't like you. Unless you live in a trailer park/ghetto. I'm not saying don't do it, but just be aware that it's pretty much the same shit.) It's human nature, and it's fucking ugly.

You bring up a good point ph. It's a how we're brought up.

I was never brought up to fear black men. In fact the only "group" of men that haven't harmed me or assaulted me in some way are "african-american" men. I grew up in fear of white, pudgy, moist men with comb overs, but that's just me.

The media of course plays a big part in how we perceive things. And having a fascination with serial killers ala Dexter I can assure you that white men,in their mid 20's to 40's who live alone and are seemingly shy nice guys are the ones I fear. :)

In the end fearing or hating someone based on skin color is pathetic and sad. I don't ever believe we'll be able to rid the world of racism, but if we each do our part in standing up for ourselves and those around us, never keeping silent, then good will come of it.

Virenda,

Why do you equate having something inserted into someone's ass an insult? For some people that's a successful end to a date. Not me however..apology accepted.

Barbado,

I honestly don't know what you are looking for. Government does crap to all of us everyday. Isn't it better if the things they do, ostensibly to improve society, are based on better information? Are some things too controversial to be discussed in public and put under the impartial and rational light of science?

Lane Honda>>

That link is more like it. I'm sure you'll forgive my disrespectful attitude given that you were the one who came up with the preemptive straw man, assuming that we are all bad at math and will combat your assertion with the flimsy "I know a stupid white person and a smart black person!"

I'm not an expert on this study and don't have the time to read it in full, but Malloy's review seems to regard Lynn's study as inconclusive at best. Mentioned therein there are a myriad of external factors beyond the cultural (malnutrition, climate, etc.) - understood and yet unrealized - that are contributing to variations in IQ. There is certainly no smoking gun that implies a difference in intelligence solely attributable to race, and I find it irresponsible to imply that is the case.

I'm a mystery myself. I know I look white, but I have no actual information on my heritage, race or background. Which is why instead of hating people for their culture I envy them. Even their struggles.

Mac... I fear all teenagers. On principal. :)

"I honestly don't know what you are looking for...."

See that's the thing I'm not looking for anything, I'm trying to see where YOUR beliefs in the power of genetics and it's related science and "engineering" will take me and those like me.

Forgive me for my concern, but you can guess why I would be worried? Just a tad?

Why any of you are bothering with this Lane person is a mystery to me...there will always be the racist jackass who infiltrates a conversation about racism and spouts their beliefs regardless of the fact that they are dead wrong.

Racism still exists. "Reverse racism" doesn't. Racism is racism, period. I HATE it when (usually) white people say "Well there are racist black people too!". So? That doesn't mean anything, it just means that yea, there are other people in the world who have racist beliefs. As if that makes your racist beliefs any less hurtful or demeaning.

I also think that everyone is racist in some way or another or holds some kind of racist belief. You don't have to act on it or spew racial epithets to be a racist. I don't like Mexican illegal immigrants. I know not all Mexicans are illegal immigrants. I just do not like the ones who say that I should speak Spanish and that California is their land and that they do all the jobs no American wants to do. Do I say that to people? No. Do I rant and rave about it in the streets? No.

But I believe that everyone is racist. I remember in my 12th grade government class, my teacher asked the class "who is racist?" (long story) I raised my hand along with like, 2 other people in a 25 or so person class. Everyone around me was like, ooooh really? And my teacher asked why I thought I was racist and I said: Anyone who adheres to negative thoughts about a race of people is racist, which is true, I think.

I'm always amazed that people don't think Hollywood is wicked racist. The first time I was surprised there was no outcry over this was that movie Tears of the Sun. This movie is about how a hot white chick is helping helpless Africans by being a doctor, and there's some kind of political strife, and Bruce Willis comes in to rescue to hot white woman but isn't supposed to take the black cannon fodder with him, but because he's such a GREAT GUY, he helps the helpless Africans. I've never seen the movie, the plotline alone gave me a giant WTF.

Movies set in Africa with white protagonists:

Tears of the Sun
Blood Diamond
I Dream of Africa
Cry Freedom
The Last King of Scotland
The Power of One (crappy Disney movie)
The Interpreter

Movies set in Africa with black protagonists (but there are still plenty of white people in it): Hotel Rwanda. Can you think of one other movie like this?

Let's talk about The Interpreter. This is a movie set in a fake African country, let's call it Wakanda. They actually hired a linguist to invent a fake language that Nicole Kidman, whitest whitey on earth, speaks. How she lives in Africa without exploding in the sun is beyond me. Think about this for a moment: rather than setting it in an existing country with an existing political conflict and hiring a bilingual to deal with an existing language, they actually hired a linguist to make up a fake language. They might as well have used Klingon. I mean, how out of your way do you have to go to not learn shit about Africa?

Speaking of Africa, all the countries have apparently evaporated and it's just Africa now. I was watching Heroes last night and Matt woke up in Africa, in the desert, and there was a turtle talking to him. Don't turtles need water? But then, this is also the show that gives us the silent black magic man The Haitian, and consistently plays Ando's horniness for laughs by pairing him up with Amazon white women, so I don't know what I was expecting.

In the comic book that Wanted was based on, not only was the character black, she looked like Halle Berry, reminding us that yes, there are black actresses, and yes, they are available for roles. She was later played by Angelina Jolie, who is apparently Hollywood for black.

Jake Gyllenhall was in a movie (Rendition) with a hot-ass guy of Middle-Eastern descent who displayed a perfectly nice pair of acting chops. But apparently he is more suitable to play Price of Persia.

When was the last time you've seen Zhang Ziyi, Maggie Cheung, Tony Leung, or Gong Li in an American movie? If you've ever seen them being interviewed, you'll notice that all of them except Ziyi have better English skills than their interviewer. Hollywood is full of white foreign people that come over and try to make it big American style, but of all the truly great performers Asia has to offer, it's only the kung-fu guy that finds any place for himself in Hollywood. Note that this was pretty much what Ziyi did in the one American role she ever played. She's explicitly said in interviews that she wouldn't come to Hollywood because there are no roles for Asians.

As bad as it is for black representation, Asians are pretty much a fucking nonentity.

How many movies have you seen set in L.A. (where I live)? How many have featured an almost all white cast, with almost no people of color even in the background? And this is a white minority city.

So, since this is a movie site, there is my little tirade about how holy fuck Hollywood is so fucking racist and no one even talks about it. You hear women talking all the time about the dearth of roles but you never hear about how hard it is for people of color.

As for the conceit that racism is something people only read about in the history books-- what about all those black people that were disenfranchised of their votes in the 2000 elections. This fucking country. And I'm white, dude.

better policies - and less money and resources wasted on policies that don't acknowledge reality.

Posted by: Lane Honda at September 24, 2008 6:01 PM

------------------------------------------------

Policies like what, friend?

Give me an example?

Sore subject for me NotBlonde.

I don't technically know anyone who is "illegal" and though my hispanic in-laws have been here in California for a good 3 generations, I'm sensitive to the subject of hate or dislike for immigrants of any nation... Illegal or otherwise.

I feel nothing but pity and sorrow for a group of people or an individual that has so few options in life other then starving or watching people starve, or living in a world of corruption, chaos and violence to just say I dislike them.

Why? Because they yearn for something better? Because they are human and deserve to live a life free of extreme poverty? Of extreme violence?

I feel pity and empathy for anyone that lacks the basic necessities of life. To eat. To smile. Shelter. Safety. Clean water. Health care. Education.

Whether it's illegal or not. I can only feel empathy, love, and concern.

I would do ANYTHING in order to provide the basics for my daughters. And honestly screw anybody that judges me for it.

I admit I'm a bleeding heart. I care about people more then politics. So sue me.

Of course there's still racism. I'm amused that some people think there's actually a way to make it go away. Institutional racism is a different question. The proliferation of racial violence in the '60s probably had a lot to do with agitation over the changing of institutional racist laws. The fact that people don't act out on racism now doesn't mean it's not there. If you expect something different than what you would in your neighborhood when you drive into a neighborhood of a different racial makeup, that is racist. Whether what you expect is negative doesn't change that. Eradicating institutional racism is essential. Eradicating racism among the people is no more achievable, nor any of the government's business, than eradicating drugs.

Barbado,

Affirmative action in higher education, for starters. Which I've already mentioned. Please answer my question - why are you so worried, do you really think an honest discussion of race and IQ will lead to eugenics as was practiced by the National Socialist German Workers Party?

Ava,

Yes, I'm sure how one words the questions has a big effect on the resulting score. Which is why you test large groups of people using the same test. Or you do studies where people take multiple IQ tests and measure the differences in their score to normalize the result.

What do you guys/girls get from pretending that IQ tests don't measure anything? Ignorance is bliss?

Here's all the code Lane's been using:

"policies"
"decisions"
"realities"

and other assorted bullshit.

Just come out and SAY/WRITE what you are hinting at, you're not fooling anyone here, son. And don't think your trollin' us either, next thread and we'll drop your sorry ass. But I want you to come out and say it.

I think most of us at Pajiba can agree that the vast majority of movies that Hollywood pumps out is shit. .

Angelina Jolie playing anyone requiring muscle tone is laughable.

I 100% feel that we need to have more diversity in movies and hopefully it'll happen. I remember as a little girl when,"Beauty & The Beast" came out, I was ecstatic. It was the first princess that looked like me AND she loved to read too! Could it get any better?

What's so saddening now is my little girls have no one to relate to in these kid movies and my youngest has decided she needs blond hair in order to be a princess and "can she please dye it?" That breaks me heart. So I hold out hope that it'll get better and I encourage them to watch those god awful High School Musical movies because at least the main characters in it are diverse and important.

Barbado,

"Affirmative action in higher education.."

-------------------------------------------
You already said that.
Yeah, that's been discredited, revised and tweaked to death.

What else?
The only possible uses you could have for it is to exclude and discriminate. Based on the prmise that if they belong to certain groups they shouldn't do certain things.

Is that what you want? Then that's easy then: all upper management/scientific/math/engineering and related fields should be given to Asians.

We get sports and physical labor, you white folk get to be middle management.

I solved it for ya.

Barbado,

Don't worry, this will be my last post in this thread (I reserve the privilege - not right - to comment on movie reviews, except Idiocracy, since I don't want to come across as a one-trick pony). All I have presented is evidence of studies that show a not-insignificant impact of genetics on IQ. I've explained multiple times that this is about group average, not individual worth or ability. It started from explaining how there will likely always be differences in outcomes among racial groups - but that doesn't necessarily mean calling it "racism" is valid. Yet this somehow means I have a hidden agenda. Take a long look at your premises, and try to figure out why you react the way you do. Or have a drink, relax, and move on.

What the fuck happens to Yao Ming? You can't just kick him out of the league. Something tells me he wouldn't be so good at the science thing.

Virenda I have to say that we need more people like you in this world. Bleedheart people are really the ones folks should listen to, as you want everything for everyone and in a good way :)

I think it's really weird that you know a little girl who thinks she needs to be blonde to be a princess when 2 of the 8 or so Disney Princesses were blonde and most of the cutesy Princess barbie crap I see out there has a blonde, brunette and African American doll.

(I reserve the privilege - not right - to comment on movie reviews, except Idiocracy,.."

Awww...you are so clever...

"...since I don't want to come across as a one-trick pony)..."

Eeeeeeh

"...All I have presented is evidence of studies that show a not-insignificant impact of genetics on IQ..."

Oh are we in court? Have your offerings been accepted as "evidence" I don't think so.

"...It started from explaining how there will likely always be differences in outcomes among racial groups - but that doesn't necessarily mean calling it "racism" is valid...."

It is, when the intent is racist, especially when it is veiled in weak little insinuations. I'd have more respect for you if you were an in my face neo-nazi. Believe me sport you are not half as clever as you think you are.

"...Take a long look at your premises, and try to figure out why you react the way you do. Or have a drink, relax, and move on..."

I have presented no premises, I'm already having a drink and I'm not going anywhere.

I find that I feel unqualified to comment on this issue because I am white, and I live in a predominantly white area. There are very few Black families in my town; most people here won't go to a town about 15 minutes from here which has a largely Black population, because they are afraid. That town has a much higher crime rate. Are people afraid because of the crime, or because of the skin color of the residents? Probably both. I can tell you that I do often hear people over the age of 40 making jokes about "the Mexicans" and "the Asians", etc., my mother among them (side note: this is super odd to me, because when I was a child, she was all about not making a big deal about people's differences. She loves "the gays", and people with disabilities. When my Filipino brother-in-law or his family are late to an event, however, she rolls her eyes and says, "Well, they're Asian,"). I can tell you that I do NOT often hear that from under-40s. However, it is also quite possible that this is because of who I choose to associate with.

I can tell you that I don't really hear any racist comments made when I go to the bar, but again, it's in a predominately white area; few people at the bar are anything other than white, and those who are tend to be in groups with whites (after-workers), so they are not considered threatening. Also, I don't hear all of every conversation; only what I happen to be paying attention to at that moment, so it could certainly be the case that I'm just not hearing it, rather than its lack of existence.

I can also tell you that I have seen many white people hate other whites if they come from Europe (i.e. Poland, Bulgaria) and have accents or don't speak perfect, fluent English. Is that considered racism? It's not classism, or sexism, it's purely about geographical origin. And again, it's from the over-40 crowd. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned an "Us v. Them" mentality, and I wonder if that isn't the most predominant attitude, and maybe it's not technicallyracism per se; everyone is different, and difference is to be feared.

I don't know if my sister ever gets questions or weird looks or comments about her half- Filipino children, but she lives in a more ethnically diverse area. I'll have to ask her. I also wonder if my Puerto Rican sister-in-law gets funny looks when she's out with my little red-haired and strawberry-blonde nieces without my brother. I wonder if people assume she's the maid. They live in Florida, which my brother told me about a year after moving there still has quite a few active Klan chapters.

If Mr. vB and I ever chose to have children, they would be lily-white blockhead Dutchies, so I wouldn't have to worry about them being discriminated against. But I worry about my niece and nephew, who look Asian, and any future children my other sister and her Cuban husband might have. Will they have to deal with that kind of nonsense? They might, and that saddens me. Not as much, though, as the fact that others have to deal with much worse.

But she just shrugged. They all shrug.

Posted by: MameV at September 24, 2008 7:03 PM

Hahahahahaha they do! Yes, they do.

Lane, go read any book by J.A. Rogers and that should give you the proper insight into race, genetics, education, intelligence, history, politics, sex, and religion.

All I have to do is go play Xbox Live and I can enjoy the beautiful music of some 12 year old calling me a "fat whore nigger dyke."

is Racism dead? Hell fucking no. No matter how hard we try, people there are always going to be stupid people, and we will use just about any reason we can get to hate other people. And it's not just racism either. Sexism, ageism, homophobia. Hate may be live and well, but thankfully, love is still going on strong.

I went there to see my sister's fiancee's family and oh my god I've never seen so many white people in my life.[...]To my surprise, everyone was actually quite cool and very nice but they definitely looked like KKK members. -- NotBlonde

Sooooo.... what exactly do KKK members look like?

(See, now I was scared to post this comment. What does that mean, exactly? West Virginia is most certainly not known as a bastion of "tolerance", so is it then to be expected that someone who is not white should be scared of going there? Is that to be considered racism, or not to be considered racism?)

I think sharing is overrated. And helping others. And what's all this crap I've been hearing about tolerance?

Let me know if you think my ideas are intriguing and you wish to subscribe to my newsletter.

Woodruff Forever, Courtney!

Actually, there was an older white guy on the reference desk when I was there too. Sure, I don't exactly send Clark alumni money since they went and jettisoned my school (Dean Gunn!!!), but I certainly liked going there at the time and it felt good to be in such a renowned and historical environment. Plus it was interesting to be a minority. Of course "interesting" isn't the experience that a lot of people who find themselves as a minority have, I'm fortunate that it's the case with me, but I think it's very valuable to see what it feels like, even in a benign situation, and everyone should try being a sore thumb somewhere.

If obama gets elected, a nude negro law will be dead in the water.

Yeah, Jay! Nice to see some CAU folk out here.

Aww, Sofia, you're the sweetest.

I looked up the Frog Princess movie, by the way. Look at the Wikipedia page (click my name for link), particularly at the end (the "Controversy" section) where they talk about the protagonist's name and then check out the "cast of characters" list along with their descriptions. This in particular interests me:
[...]the character was also a chambermaid, an occupation some felt not in keeping with the image of a Disney Princess.
Wasn't Cinderella essentially a chambermaid? Aren't all the princess stories pretty much heartwarming rags-to-riches tales? Wasn't that the story of the frog prince-the poor girl finds a frog and kisses him because he's secretly a prince, and then he makes her his princess? Or is she the frog-it's a little unclear from the title change.

Very interesting stuff. I'm very curious to see how it turns out. I really hope it's good. I think it really would be nice for Virenda's daughters to have a princess that looks like them. I was just happy when they got one that wasn't blonde... (Honestly, though, Sleeping Beauty was always my favorite. She had the prettiest dress. But, it was Maleficent who made it my favorite.)

Jesus, it's not even my parenting skills you're pissing on but my blood pressure is going up each time you post, NotBlonde. Cut the passive-aggressive bullshit.

Oh, it's ON now!

Obviously not:

http://racist-myspace-users.blogspot.com/

Sooooo.... what exactly do KKK members look like?

I would say a KKK member looks like a Neo-Nazi. Aka, someone who is white. Typically with blonde hair and blue eyes. They are known to ride around in trucks with confederate flags posted somewhere obvious and make racist statements off-the-cuff. Please, don't ask what a KKK member looks like, that is an asinine question and you know it.

You shouldn't be afraid to make a comment about how silly it is to fear white people. It should be expected of someone who isn't white to fear going there. Yes it should. Same as a white person should fear going into an area known for violence against whites. Sure it's racism, but it isn't a dumb thing to do. It's what I guess you could call being smart, not necessarily racist. And I was actually wrong about my sister's fiancee's town. The people there were very kind and extremely helpful (the car broke down).

Anna, I also have to point this out: there are plenty of Princesses who aren't blonde. The vast majority aren't actually. I've gotten into many tiffs with friends about this, when they whined about Disney not having princesses who weren't blonde. There are eight princesses. Only Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty are blonde. All have brown eyes except for 3. All the rest have black hair, red hair or brown hair.

If anything her daughters should look at Pocahontas, Snow White and Jasmine. Little black girls don't have anyone; not until this newest one anyway.

Actually Disney drawings, IN MY OPINION, tend to skew toward homogenizing and whitewashing the ethnicity of the characters, so they don't really need to have blue eyes and blond hair the effect is the same, the just look like they have really, nice, non-offensive tans.

Similarly, Hollywood films prefer to have lighter skinned blacks, preferably Halle Berry types (or just Halle Berry) rather than a strong featured black lady like say, Angela Basset, who in fact, claims to have been blacklisted once she started speaking out. The same goes for males, notice Terrence Howard.

NotBlonde:

Then I guess the non-hypocritical thing to do would be to not even make a movie about *Pocahontas,* don't bother even writing in a token *black.* I would much rather have that, seriously.

If the white majority needs to have "acceptable," white looking, "ethnics" to feel good about themselves yet, not threatened, then racism in this country is worse than ever.

That's my answer to today's question, Mr. Rowles.

Would anybody here favor a nude negro law?

Posted by: courtney at September 24, 2008 7:06 PM

Whoo!!! AUC, represent! Oh wait, I have no school spirit. In fact...I hate the place! Screw you, Morehouse!

Actually, I met the valedictorian guy once. He was on the football team(!) with one of my friends, and we ran into them at a Japanese restaurant.

He was a nice guy, and I never really saw the big deal about him. People were acting like he was either a) the HBCU Antichrist (mostly people who never actually went to college, let alone the AUC) or b) a hero (again, mostly folks who never went to any of these schools).

I, like many of my fellow students, were quite puzzled. Did this one guy, who happened to be white and have a high GPA, somehow invalidate the numerous minority valedictorians before then? Did he somehow kick MLK out as "Most Famous Alumni" simply because he was white? Not that I have seen, but you could have told quite a few people otherwise.

I personally couldn't care if your parents were Pandas,

Is it passe to make a reference to jM at this? I really wish someone would establish statutes of limitations on inside jokes.

And Disney Princesses are shite role models, no matter what watered-down race they sort of resemble.

Except Mulan. At least she 1) kicked much ass in a movie that 2) at least tried to have some sense of non-whitened culture about it, and 2) was voiced by an actual Asian woman, which is still pretty impressive, seeing as how you didn't KNOW she was Asian unless you paid attention to the credits.

Wait...is she even considered a Princess? This is all very confusing.

Wait...is she even considered a Princess? This is all very confusing.

But of course! It'd be sloppy marketing to not make the group as big as possible. Disney covers the bases in that respect. They're marketing dumbasses in having everything for sale EXCEPT THE MOVIES though.

Artificial scarcity value? How much money has that actually made you the past six Christmases when you wouldn't let anyone have the dvd's?

Wait...is she even considered a Princess? This is all very confusing.

Posted by: Social Justice Crusader Recoil Zoo Palin at September 24, 2008 9:14 PM

-----------------------------------------------

Actually "she" wasn't. Bit of trivia, the story of maiden Mulan was a cautionary tale of irony. You see, the "maiden" was actually the first case of a male to female sex re-assignment (Asian medicine.... and IQs...having always been very advanced) his original name was Mu-Lung.

The ironic twist came when the Emperor's under threat of Hun invasion issued the conscription decree, Mu-Lung, now Mulan, had to disguise herself as a "dude" which "she" originally was.
Homoerotic overtones abound (very avant-garde of the Asians, again, the high IQs) as the Prince and "Mulan" fall in love.

TRUE. STORY.

I have to say that most people don't even realize that Dr. King (who is the reason I have a job) went to Morehouse. It's all about Samuel L. taking the president hostage these days...

And avoiding the point by making the main characters animals does not solve the problem either.

I whole-heartedly agree with that, libraryliz.

libraryliz,

My in-laws once gave us a stack of children's books for my daughter. In going through the stack I found "Little Black Sambo." Uh-oh, I thought. Can't be passing this one along. But it had been a long time since I'd read the story, so ...

First I should say that the illustrations in this book were beautiful. Sam and his parents (yes, parents -- it's a two-parent household, albeit in the jungle, and dad apparently has a job that pays well enough that mom is a stay-at-home type) were not portrayed with big-lipped stereotypes; his father looked handsome, his mother was lovely, and they, of course, were dressed in beautiful clothes. The people were not quoted in pidgin English but spoke well. Sam, of course, encounters the greedy animals who steal his fine things, but they get their comeuppance because of their greed. Or maybe Sam just outsmarts them. Anyway, then Sam goes home and they enjoy a fine meal (pancakes and butter as I recall).

I was baffled by what was wrong with any of this. Maybe I just got an enlightened edition? I can hardly think so; it was published in the '60s I think. Been wondering about that one ever since.

Ask Jesse Jackson, when he called Hussein Obama a nigger!

No, it's not dead.
Why? At least once a week, I will hear somebody say something or see someone do something racist that is based on someone else's colour. Or, their accent. If racism is judging someone negatively based on the notion of their "race" I've witnessed this in Korea against Japanese and vice versa. By Vietnamese against Cambodian/Khmer, and vice versa. Korean against Chinese. These days, by almost everyone against the Chinese. By Thai against Loatian. Black against white and vice versa in North America. Australian whites against aboriginals, white south Africans against black SAs, white New Zealanders against the Maori, and on and on. It is a human condition. Sadly, I think our species will always find something to be racist about against members of their own species if they're in the slightest way different and if we as a species do not learn how to handle the notion of difference and to face fears, however irrational they may be. And, as previously noted, racism is both overt and covert. I have found that liberal minded people (including those that say they aren't or can't admit that they are) are more covert, and the extreme right wing type are, um, rather overt in their racism. For some reason, the liberal racism irritates me more. But ignorance is very difficult to fight.

Dude... It was freaking will.i.am. You gotta laugh at everything a piece of junk like that has to say, either it's serious or not.

And in this case, you gotta laugh for a good reason.

For as long as lazy, self-pitying assholes in search of a scapegoat exist, there will always be racism. And as long as racism exists, there will always be exploitative assholes willing to feed it.

Speaking of exploitation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Blue_(duo)

I hate to be cliche but I've lived in the south my whole life and I have definitely seen racism from young people. I'm sure its less prevalent than it was prior to this young generation. And it will probably continue to get better. But I think its unrealistic to think it will completely go away. Some people will always have an irrational dislike towards others.

Dead racism is not.

& If policies are created based on statistics gathered from genetics, I guess folks with more melanocytes in their skin will be forced to live closer to the equator and those with less melanocytes further away. For our own good. Nobody should be burned by the sun. Damn sun :shakes fist:

NotBlonde-- Ahh, I was hoping someone would make this argument. OK, Asians make up 7% of the country. If we were to go by your logic, they should make up 7% of the casts of movies and television. To put this into perspective for you, a bit less than one in every ten movies should have a predominantly Asian cast. This is not so.

Black people make up 13% of the country. So a little more than one in ten movies should feature a predominantly black cast, again according to your logic. But this is not so.

I very much disagree with the fact that it is the audience that is racist and not the filmmakers. I say this because we don't have a real test for this-- for instance, if there were movies being made featuring people of color and people never saw those movies, then we could pin it on the audience. But there's nothing to select from in the first place for people of color. So I would pin it on the filmmakers, who are responsible for the selection in the first place.

To further absolve the audience as being responsible for racism in the media, let's look at the fashion industry, which rarely uses models of color. Would you say it's the audience who's responsible for that? Because last time I checked, the Black issue of Vogue flew off the stands like fucking hotcakes. Maybe there's lots of KKK-joining, hay-eating racists in this country, but there's also quite clearly an audience that would love to see people of color in all forms of media.

Wait...is she even considered a Princess? This is all very confusing.

Posted by: Social Justice Crusader Recoil Zoo Palin at September 24, 2008 9:14 PM

-----------------------------------------------

Technically, she wasn't at first. When Disney first started the "Princess Line," it only included Ariel, Cinderella, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Belle, and Jasmine. I remember walking into the Disney Store in Downtown Disney and questioning the absence of Mulan and Pocohantas, and the sales girl explained to me that they weren't princesses: Snow, Sleeping, Jasmine and Ariel by birth, Belle and Cinderella by marriage. I (and I'm sure many others) wrote a scathing letter to Disney and a few months later the Disney line was "expanded" to include the latter two.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disney_Princess

Does my objectifying Hallie Berry just like I objectify Sela Ward count as being racially blind?

Just asking.

Diana / Sappho '08

Oh, wait, that's sexist. I get my "ists" confused.

Iago / Caine '08

NotBlonde-- It's not like this country is seventy percent white, which is how you make it sound and what you may believe. And I'm not saying there aren't a lot of racist white people in America, but I think it's ridiculous to say that the racist representation of Hollywood is completely reducible to a racist audience. Counting together African Americans, Asians, Latinos, not to mention the occasional Native American and mixed-race person, you've got about half a country full of color, and an audience hungry to see more realistic representation in the cinema. It's not there because the people making the movies are largely white-- and I don't think it's intentional racism, either, I think you've got people with a very blinkered outlook on life who surround themselves with white people and put only those people in their movies. Would movies do worse if there was better representation? It's impossible to say, actually, since the only way to test it is to get better representation and then see how the audience reacts. The reason I brought up the black Vogue issue is because that's pretty much the only circumstance I can think of where the media specifically tried to get better representation. And like I also said, it was the best-selling issue of Vogue ever. Or take movies like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, and House of the Flying Daggers-- they did pretty damn well considering how everybody KNOWS audiences don't like subtitles. I think the audience in yours and producers minds is pretty much fictional. I think it's this fictional audience that makes people think the only thing black people want to see are Tyler Perry movies. I mean, just because white people will see some shitty Ben Stiller comedy doesn't mean that we don't also like to see decent dramas. And you don't seem to take into account that while racist white people might not go see a decent movie with a cast with some color in it, there's about half the country left that will gladly see it. A non-vote isn't an anti-vote, after all.

::raises hand: I called Obama articulate once, but that's when I was contrasting him with Bush.

I'm a half white/half Latino Canadian-born American. I have lily white skin, red hair, green eyes. My two sisters have brown skin, brown hair, green eyes. I spent my whole life being asked who my "friends" were, or who their father was. We moved to Texas, hooked up with our father's Latino family. They immediately lost their shit when my oldest sister brought home her black boyfriend. My sister's black boyfriend is from New York. When he moved to Texas from the North, he said in response to the number of mixed-race couples here: "It's like Jungle Fever down here!" I am a lesbian. My sister's boyfriend's family will not invite me over to their house for the baby shower they are planning because Jesus doesn't like gay people. My ex-girlfiend is an Indian (like from India, not "Native American") born Brit. Three weeks ago, I found out that she accounted for my sisters' darker skin by telling her family that we're actually part Indian. After a primarily Mexican moving crew scratched up their wood floors, they don't want Mexicans in their house. They apparently also think it's stupid that "everyone's supposed to learn Spanish now" because they moved to an English speaking country, not a Spanish speaking country. To vacation from the madness, I visited my Canadian family. My Canadian grandmother wants to know how light skinned I think my nephew is gonna be. She alway points out to her friends and other family that I was born in Canada, because her Canadian friends don't like Americans.

Unfortunately, this is all true. So I just say that some people are completely retarded. I don't say that out loud of course, because my mother would smack me for using "that word".

So. Palin believes in witches? Like Harry Potter?

I think it's interesting that with all the plethora of glorious human diversity that evolution has presented us with, some seem to think that once we reached H. Sapiens the brain has been left untouched. By race we differ (on the average) in height, pigment, proportion, and any number of other things as adaptations to differing environments (or sometimes not as an adaptation to an environment, but for instance because a previous adaptation was no longer necessary; think blindness in cave animals). What is special about intelligence that it would be untouched?

This isn't intended as a defense of the Bell Curve; I've never read it or the large volume of criticism that exists. I'm addressing those who think that intelligence does not differ among the races and I'm interested to know on what you base that belief. If it's already been stated, my apologies but Jeebus we're in the 200s on posts in this thread.

My in-laws once gave us a stack of children's books for my daughter. In going through the stack I found "Little Black Sambo." Uh-oh, I thought. Can't be passing this one along. But it had been a long time since I'd read the story, so ...

LOLOL! I had this story as a child -- "A Peter Pan book and record set." Ahh, vinyl.

In my version, Sambo was lily white, blue-eyed, and red headed. And "Little BRAVE." I think I had the expurgated version. I'm pretty sure the original was a little different. I had no idea there was a controversy until I was a grown woman. (Well, that and the fact that tigers tend to live in South Asia, not Africa so much.)

In all seriousness -- the problem with some of those stories back then isn't that they were wall to wall evil so much as there were no alternatives. It's like saying "what does it matter if the gay character is killed off, straight characters get killed off!" without realizing that the death rate of gay characters on TV is maybe 70-80-90 percent, as compared with a far lower percentage of straight characters (who also get other roles, like being the hero, for one).

I say this because we don't have a real test for this-- for instance, if there were movies being made featuring people of color and people never saw those movies, then we could pin it on the audience.

Have you seen "Lift" starring Kerry Washington? (You should.)

Industries provide what sells. If something has no history of selling to the mainstream, nobody is going to take a chance on it, regardless of how critically acclaimed it is.

(And it's kind of overly reductive to separate the "media" from the "audience" as though a member of one were never a member of the other.)

All that said, if they don't cast Asians in the "Avatar" movie, I am boycotting. ;-)

A Little WHITE Sambo? Having ... trouble ... processing ...

I do know this: Back in the late '70/early '80s there was a restaurant chain called Sambo's, pretty much like Denny's only, IMHO, better. In the couple times I ate there I'm pretty sure I never once thought, "Ha! I aim to purposely insult black people by my choice of restaurant. Stupid black people." Nevertheless, some black folks got in a snit about the name and forced the chain to change it, which it did, to No Place Like Sam's.

I don't mean to suggest a cause-and-effect relationship here, but somehow the food was never quite the same.

Anyway, perhaps because it had to fend off such lawsuits the chain eventually filed for bankruptcy, if memory serves me right.

"It's not like this country is seventy percent white, which is how you make it sound and what you may believe."

From a very quick google search on the United States Census Bureau website (the census is flawed, yes, but it's the best representation we have) 80.1% of the US population was white in 2006. 12.8% were black. 4.4% were Asian. Hispanics or Latinos were 14.8%. Whites who specificed non-Hispanic were STILL 66.4% of the ppoulation. So I'm not that far off when I think this country is majority white. That whole middle area of the country and the top and some of the sides are FILLED with white people. The little population that the middle states have is white people.

"And I'm not saying there aren't a lot of racist white people in America, but I think it's ridiculous to say that the racist representation of Hollywood is completely reducible to a racist audience."

Why not? The filmmakers make movies for the audience. If they didn't make movies for the audience, they'd be indie filmmakers or peddling their movies around the studios and you know what the studios will say: "It won't sell".

"Counting together African Americans, Asians, Latinos, not to mention the occasional Native American and mixed-race person, you've got about half a country full of color"

No you really don't. And of those people, they are disproportionately poorer than whites and therefore can't go and see movies as often and probably don't own televisions.

"The reason I brought up the black Vogue issue is because that's pretty much the only circumstance I can think of where the media specifically tried to get better representation. And like I also said, it was the best-selling issue of Vogue ever."

Yes it was. Because it was weird. It wasn't the "normal" issue and people knew that. They wanted the one that was never going to happen again, or possibly only happen annually. And notice that that black Vogue you are talking about was made by ITALIAN Vogue. Never American Vogue. If American Vogue does something like that, I'll bite my tongue about it but American Vogue would never ever do that.

"Or take movies like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, and House of the Flying Daggers-- they did pretty damn well considering how everybody KNOWS audiences don't like subtitles."

You can also bet your ass that the majority of those audiences were white liberals who went and saw it several times to show up their equally douche-baggy friends. (Not that liberals are douche baggy by nature its just that you KNOW the type of person I'm talking about, the one who would only refer to those movies as "Crouching" and "Daggers" in conversation)

I've thought a lot about this considering I've taken a shit ton of media studies classes so I'm not talking out of my ass, merely relaying information that seems important in this conversation.

There is a majority of white people in this country. Those white people watch movies. They want to watch movies with other white people in them. They may not necessarily be racist by thinking this way, but they still do it. And whether you want to believe it or not, a lot of white people are racist. Truly more than you think.

If you are white, you are quite lucky because you've never been on the receiving end of racial cruelty but I HAVE. A lot. And this is not just from random old people this is interviewers leaning over their desks telling me I'm really articulate but they just can't hire a "darkie" right now. My friend's parents in middle school saying it was "getting dark" in the bathroom when I entered. Being called nigger a grand total of 6 times in my lifetime, twice while living in Berkley, the supposed liberal hippie mecca. Once at fucking Disneyland when I was about 10 by a parent of another child. Being followed around constantly in stores when I dress very well and quite clearly have money to spend.

You seem to think that the United States only has isolated groups of racist whites but they are everywhere. And the majority of this country is white, regardless of what you may think.

Sorry about the long ass post, I was just a bit annoyed.

Haven't read any but the first couple of comments, and I'm planning to go back and indulge, but my hubs and I just had this conversation last week. (Do the Right Thing was on.)

We came to the conclusion that racism is a mask for anger and fear; it comes out superficially when people have nothing concrete to blame for these feelings. Racism does exist, and it will continue to exist as long as the world cultures continue to validate anger and fear as meaningful responses to human interaction.

Racism is as rampant as ignorance. It does exist, even if people don't use the same terminology.

(On the other hand, eHarmony in real life paired me -- black Caribbean -- up with six white guys, one Korean, and a Pakistani. Just to provide texture to the debate. :-D)

It occurred to me yesterday while watching a Canadian music video with a Japanese "main character" -- it's a little bit sad that I am still surprised when I see other countries putting nonwhites into roles that don't specify a necessary race. "Colorblind" means "white" here, where it doesn't always in the UK or Canada. The most we do is put Will Smith into roles where his blackness isn't a factor -- but we could do more. We have a ways to go.

OK Not Blonde (this one's going to be long, too)-- I give you that this country is majority white. My bad, chalk it up to me growing up in LA. Seriously, I was wrong on that, I give you that. But even though it's majority white, there's still 44 percent of the people that don't see themselves represented, and would probably like to-- that's a lot, enough to buy enough tickets to make a movie successful. They may be poor-- but even during the Depression people used their money to go to the movies. And though for economic reasons they might be more likely to watch TV, TV is also extremely problematic in terms of racial representation. And a lot of those majority white people may not be adverse to seeing a movie like Do The Right Thing-- that was a pretty successful movie. And it's flukes like this that are why I'm still going to argue with you that the reason Hollywood is racist is because of the audiences and not the filmmakers.

"The filmmakers make movies for the audience."-- When you make a movie, you make a movie for the audience you think there is, not the audience that there actually is (this is not the same as saying there aren't racist people out there). I'd also say decent race representation is not just something people of color want, but something that non-racist white people want. And I think that if filmmakers would try something out and occassionally cast a black woman in a lead role opposite a white man, they might find that the movie does a lot better than expected. The idea that these movies won't sell comes from the studio execs, not necessarily from the audiences.

As for what I think of white racism-- as I said before, I'm not saying there aren't racist white people. And I'm not saying they're isolated groups, either. I think there's quite a lot of racism and have seen it even in supposedly liberal places. I am white, so of course I haven't seen as much of it as there is, and I've always assumed there was more than I saw. If you'll read my first post you'll notice that I said it always amazes me that people don't see a movie like Tears of the Sun and call it out on its racist plot-- that's a sign that I realized people were more racist than I thought. I also pretty much lost faith in this country when there was no recall of the 2000 election when so many black people were intentionally disenfranchised of their votes. That was one of the many points at which I realized there is more racism in this country than I had previously assumed. That is one of the many points at which I realized that the liberal bias against racism I assumed this country to have was not as strong as it was. So I'm not saying there's less racism than you think-- I'm saying that there is enough of a non-racist audience out there to make a film sellable.

So, I still say that the lack of presence of people of color in Hollywood movies is ultimately in the hands of the people who make the movies. And yes, Hollywood famously doesn't take risks-- no complex movies, no movies with subtitles, no movies with people of color-- it doesn't sell. My argument is that if they lost their fear, they would see that these things, with good marketing, DO sell. Do The Right Thing sold. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon sold. Harold and Kumar sold. The black issue of Vogue sold. And the reason that last one is weird is because the people who had produced it had actually responded to the outcry out of poor representation in the fashion industry-- an outcry that was covered by the media, but which, in this blogging age, came largely from the audience. And who bought it? The audience-- the portion of it that is not white, and the portion of it that is white and non-racist.

When a movie sells well, it's not 100 percent of the country who sees it. I don't know off the top of my head what percentage of the country goes to see it, but it's not 100%. Let's say, for the sake of argument, a successful movie garners ticket sales from 50% of the population-- and so we could take that as all that's needed to make a successful movie. And I would say that 50% of the American audience would be quite willing to lay down their money to see a good movie, marketed well, with a racially diverse cast (and not a merely tokenized cast, and not a cast whose races were reduced to the entirety of their identity).

And you know, I'm not trying to say you didn't have the experiences you had or that you're talking out of your ass or that this country isn't racist. Me arguing with you isn't a sign that I think you're talking out of your ass-- it's that I take your viewpoint seriously enough to argue with it.

I've gotta ask you why a white liberal is such a douchebag for seeing Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, though. I mean, yeah, I'm one of those white people that watches tons and tons of movies out of China and Korea and Japan-- because their cinema, unlike Hollywood, is really exciting and full of movies of quality. Am I a douchebag for this? Am I a douchebag for liking Do the Right Thing? I'm just saying, if you're going to criticize people on the one hand for being so racist that it's entirely responsible for the state of racism in Hollywood cinema, and on the other hand for seeing movies featuring people of color, this doesn't really give old whitey anywhere to go.

No, no, maybe I'm overstating it. Maybe you're implying that the reason people went to see Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon because of their liberal white guilt. I dunno. Maybe. Maybe it was also an action movie with great cinematography and a heretofore unseen martial arts style. I'm not saying white liberal guilt or values or whatever had nothing to do with it, but it probably didn't have everything to do with it.

So, yeah, this country is racist. That doesn't mean that a non-racist Hollywood wouldn't sell, though. I don't think that the racism in the country prevents a movie catering to a black audience from selling-- Tyler Perry movies are also proof of this, regardless of what people think of the quality of them. I simply think that there is an audience for decent movies with casts of color in them-- just because there are racists in this country doesn't negate the presence of an audience that isn't racist. Ultimately I think Hollywood is racist because they have allowed their perception of a racist audience to prevent them from seeing the audience that isn't racist, and that would buy tickets.

Ask Jesse Jackson why he said he'd like to kill that nigger, meaning Hussein Obama

I think that what is often perceived as Racism is actually classism. Not to say that racism doesn't exist. But people mostly are not going to be racist towards Obama and the reason is that he's rich. Meanwhile, poor members of all races are widely discriminated against. They are just more likely to be minority.

Notblonde "are you implying that there has never been racial cruelty against a white group, that there has never been racial cruelty against white people in this country, or that there has not been racial cruelty against white people in this country over our lifetimes? I disagree with all of them, but some of the positions would concern me more than others."

Of course there has been racial cruelty against white people. This was my statement:

"If you are white, you are quite lucky because you've never been on the receiving end of racial cruelty but I HAVE."

I think the implied meaning there (and I would know, as I wrote it) is that white people nowadays have never been on the receiving end of racial cruelty. If a white person in here can say that they've been called something equal to "nigger", have been passed over for a job because they were white, or followed around a store while they were dressed well and clean, then they can say they have experienced racial cruelty. If a white person says "someone called me a redneck", kindly stfu. If a white person says, "well Irish people had it bad too!", kindly stfu.

White people, especially now, NEVER have to worry about racial strife.

White people, especially now, NEVER have to worry about racial strife.

NOT BLONDE...

a: My new neighborhood (designated Inner City) has quite a few parents in it that give me the stink eye pretty damn bad. They're like, 'White bitch, don't smile at my kid, as if you care. Plus, stop taking over our neighborhood. Now that we cleaned up the crackhouses, you're buying them and applying for 'heritage status'. We'll likely be displaced by this type of shit, so back the fuck off'.

b: then again, that displacement IS coming here, and they have a right to be pissed by the encroachment. They don't have the right, however, to think I smile at their kids because I'm taking a shot at a liberal-bent, post-guilt, messiah complex. I'm poorer than the lot of them at this exact time in my life, and I happen to like kids more than I like most adults. Probably because they aren't wrapped up in all this shit yet.

c: but then again - I made over 300k before I was 12 as a kid actor just because of my white hair and skin and blue eyes.

Yup - I feel guilty because of that, but also pissed that I can't be included in a recess chat with the Filipina mommies and First Nations grannies for some reason. I've tasted both sides of the coin (but never in a way that can compare) so I re-assert that it, racism, is here to stay.

If you want it, you got it.

Notblonde:
So you meant there hasn't been racial cruelty against white people in our lifetimes. That's the best case, but I still disagree. Ask Polish people, Italians, Jews, Irish, Welsh, Norwegians, the list goes on. I have heard slurs used in anger against every one of those groups in my life (okay, not in anger against Norwegians, but go up north and there is a cottage industry of books about how stupid Norwegians are). There may not be a word considered as offensive as the n word for any of these groups, but that doesn't mean that kids aren't taunted on playgrounds and left out of parties, cruel jokes aren't snickered over in "friendly" company, and businesses aren't avoided because they have the wrong ownership or clientele.

And if you include hispanics, don't get me started.

Fun fact: "Dutch" is legally a slur in the Netherlands and has been since 1938.

Being Mexican and only randomly crossing the border to buy books, I know racism is not dead. I don't ever get harassed myself, because I don't "look Mexican" ("ooo, you live in Mexico? Why?" "Because I'm Mexican", "Wow, you don't look Mexican" Repeat conversation ad nauseaum until you get the message that Mexicans, apparently, have a certain "look"), but I find little notes on my car - which has Mexican plates - saying "Mexifuck, go home". Which is nice.

Every time it happens, I come back home and then find excuses to put off buying one book or another until I have no choice but to cross the border again. I find it tremendously unfair that I spend half of the money I make in the US and get emotionally punished for it.

NotBlonde, I think what you are running into here is a problem of oversimplifying the issue. To say that "white people, especially now, NEVER have to worry about racial strife" is a position that can be discredited by even ONE act of racism against a white person.

I think the point here is that every culture has experience some form of persecution, usually racial or cultural, because that is the easiest identifying factor: what a person looks like. White people are not immune to racism.

'Ask Polish people, Italians, Jews, Irish, Welsh, Norwegians,'

The trouble with any argument saying white people have been discriminated against or experience racial cruelty is that all of you look pretty much the same. Don't try to tell me that a Polish person receives any kind of racial strife similar to a black person in this country. I also said NOW, not in the past. The past is the past, but NOW black people still get the shittiest end of the stick in terms of racial cruelty. A polish person looks like any other white person. Italian people can look like any other white person. A lot of white people in this country are Irish/German/Scottish whatever.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is: White people NOW, as in today, don't have to go about worrying that they are going to be called a racial slur. All of those people you listed can "pass" for normal American white. I can't. Black people can't. Our skin color doesn't rub off. If we get nose jobs we look weird.

"but that doesn't mean that kids aren't taunted on playgrounds and left out of parties, cruel jokes aren't snickered over in "friendly" company, and businesses aren't avoided because they have the wrong ownership or clientele."

Welcome to blackness since, oh, the beginning of time. But again, if a kid never says he's Polish. Irish whatever, no one will ever know to be racist against him. A business doesn't have to be extremely race-oriented. Polish people choose to sell polish food, Norwegians sell Norwegian food, whatever. But they can always always always pass for "normal" American white.

Hispanics, to me anyway, aren't white. They have a completely different culture than most white cultures.

A Jew can be anyone, I could be a Jew. Being a "Jew" just means being Jewish and Judaism is a religion, not a race.

Fun fact: "Dutch" is legally a slur in the Netherlands and has been since 1938. Are we in the Netherlands? No, so unfortunately I could really not care a tiny little rat's ass.

I'd sure like to cut his brown skinned nuts off!