Pajiba

I, too, have been incredibly lucky when it comes to the Little Pug's behavior in public. He does most of his asshattery in private, especially in the car.

So I'm going to break the rules of the diversion a minute to comment on the diversion itself. I often think, "Control your damn children," even though I'm a parent. If a kid has a crazy meltdown, then I feel nothing but pity for the parents who try their best to handle it calmly and quickly. The people who make me fucking crazy are the ones who sit on their duffs while their bratty ass kids run around screaming and destroying stuff. I especially hate the ones who, from their seats, yell idle threats at their soon-to-be hoodlums. People, please, get off your asses and take care of your damn kids!

I haven't been in too many bad situations, but my first son was born 5 weeks before the end of my last semester of law school. I had to take him to school with me, and like all newborns, he would sometimes cry. I always left class when it happened, but people would come up to me in the hallways (of buildings with no classes in them; I'm not a moron) and grill me about his crying, as if they could somehow fix it by bugging me enough. Look, lady, if I knew why he was crying and could fix it, I would. Can you not see me here jiggling and bouncing with one boob hanging out and developmental
toys hanging from every limb? I'm giving it all I've got, just leave me alone for 5 minutes and maybe I can calm him down!

My husband and I were grocery shopping with our 1 year old daughter. She started these high-pitched shrieks throughout the store. It wasn't so bad except all of the other babies decided to do the same, as if they were all calling out to one another and communicating. We tried to get her to stop, but clearly she was having too much fun. We cut our trip short, and on our way to the car, a bird shit on her head. The words that came out of my mouth I regret to this day, but all I could say was, "birds don't shit on good little girls." Her therapy will be spendy.

Little G once stood up (as tall as she could) on our booth seat at Panera Bread and proclaimed, "I have four cheeks!"

Then, she counted them for everyone's benefit and, presumably, for my own edification as well.

In retrospect, it was kind of awesome.

You know what, I have a cute kid. Guess what happens with kids that are too damn cute... every grandparent aged person wants to talk to them, wants to give them some candy or pens or stickers or other shit. They baby talk to my five year old, they want to small talk to me while I'm trying to get my shopping done. It creeps me out. So start controlling your parents people!

Don't try to use your righteous indignation on me Mr Rowles. I have a kid and I hate other people's kids. I'm not talking about babies and toddlers because those things cannot be controlled. I'm talking about the ones that are old enough to beg for a cellphone but devolve into some lower form of primate the minute they get out in public.

Control your kids!!

Any old snooch: Pre-school graduation. I know. So stupid. A ceremony for four year olds is just asking for trouble. A lot of the other parents bought their kids gifts and gave them out during the ceremony. We did not. Apparently we missed that memo. Daughter notices other kids gifts and the fact that she has none. Proceeds to freak out. We carry her to the car screaming. I don't remember if it was her or us screaming. But there was screaming. We have pictures somewhere. The lesson here is that we will never attend another graduation ceremony. She's quitting high school in 10th grade.

Having a sick child with a complete meltdown is one thing. I feel badly for some parents in that situation.

BUT - The parents who do not control their children in public, who do not teach them good manners, and who do not enforce their own rules when in public are not getting my sympathy.

Parents are probably not gonna like it - but children are a lot like dogs. They need to have a good constant routine, exercise, positive reinforcement for good behavior, and should learn to do as they are told the first time, or have an immediate correction.

I know it is not always possible, but try not skipping naps or snacks and thereby creating a tired child with low blood sugar in an overstimulating public environment.

Children are not part of a democracy. When you ASK your precious child questions and they answer negatively, don't be surprised. When you end questions with "okay?" that counts. Saying "Britney, first we are going to eat our lunch and then we are going to take a nap, okay?" gives your child the opportunity to disagree. And no apologies to the hippies, but children should not always have a choice in what they do. Children DO need to learn to do things and accept the answer whether they like it or not.

Children should not be in charge, and woe to the parent that lets their child(ren) take control of their lives.

Recently on Yahoo their was a link about restaurants and children and I was happy to see I am not the only one who doesn't want to pay to eat out and end up seated by a screamer.

(http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/parenting/message-to-parents-getting-louder-no-screaming-babies-allowed-2388887/)

(hope I posted that right}

I DO like children - the well behaved ones. And someday I may have one of my own. And I will do everything I can to raise a happy, well adjusted, smart child I am proud to take out in public.

OK, just to make the point it's not only toddlers who cause embarrassment - we were at Great Grandma's funeral, standing around outside talking to a group of various elderly relatives and clergy. They were talking about Grandma being heaven with the angels etc etc, when my 8 year old son pipes up, (loudly of course) "Well, in our family, we don't believe in god or heaven or anyth-" the rest of his sentence was cut off as for the first and only time in my life I literally clapped my hand over his mouth and dragged him away from the group to explain to him that while being an atheist was fine and nothing to hide in general, funerals were not really the places to talk about it.

In the fall/winter of 08/09 we spent a good three months solid with at least one sick kid in the house. I was pregnant at this time as well, which compounded to make this one of the worst times of my life to date. One very cold winter evening in the middle of the household sick we thought we had hit a lull in the puke fest to be able to go out to dinner with our girls. We went to a very family friendly local Italian joint that we had been too many times before with the kids. Toward the end of the dinner my daughter, who was almost two at the time, decided that her freshly eaten dinner wasn't sitting well on her freshly ill stomach and projectile vomited everything she had just ate. The dining room was packed full at the time. Fortunately we had become so used to her puking that we recognized the signs early on, but that only served to leave a trail of puke on the floor from our table to the door, where my husband rushed her out. I was in the bathroom when this all happened and came back to an empty table with the wait staff cleaning up the floor. I was mortified. I probably tipped about 50% that night. Meanwhile my husband was outside with my poor, post-puke daughter, soaking wet and freezing since it was only about 35 degrees at the time. She was so pathetic it almost made me cry.

My favorite funny story was when we went to a friend's son's birthday party at a fire station. There were about 12 kids there, most of them between the ages of 2-4. My youngest daughter was already a little leery of the big fire trucks to begin with, but when the firemen started with their spiel on not being afraid of them if they have to come into your house to rescue you, putting on their masks to show what they would like, she lost her shit. She panicked and started sobbing, and crying out 'no, no, no' over and over. One by one each little kid in the room, in turn, lost their shit as well, until almost every single one of the kids there was sobbing and wailing at the sight of the firemen. Fortunately everyone there was a parent so we all got a good laugh out of it.

swampthing How do you reason with an 18 month old to make him or her understand that bad manners at the table meant they lost dinner? I feel like I'm communicating with an alien with 18 month olds. And they don't seem to understand or care about the potential food they missed out on.

And as for those who are in the anti-kids at restaurants camp, we've frequently taken our kids to restaurants since they were infants, and now my girls, at 2.5 and 4.5 are restaurant pros. They happily start coloring when the crayons and paper are brought, and eagerly eat their pizza or mac & cheese when it comes. They're not perfect yet, by any means, but we are part of the solution, not the problem. I know this is because we started the restaurant indoctrination early on. When you complain about the older kids who still don't know how to behave themselves, just keep in mind that taking them out to eat from an early age ensures smooth dining experiences in the future. My son, the youngest, is a little different, but he's at the awkward age where he never wants to sit still and doesn't quite care enough about the food yet. We're still working on him, but don't boys usually take a little longer to mature?

As for the restaurant discussion, I just have to say that the only day of the year when a child is truly annoying at a restaurant is valentine's day. Find. Another. Day. To. Train. Them. If you're at a restaurant on Valentine's, odds are you are in a relationship, and trying to make some sort of go at romance, be it strained, new or old, and dammit no one wants to see kids on that day.

Maybe I read the diversion wrong last time, but I thought it was about rude behaviour? As in, ignorance of or indifference to good form; it may suggest intentional discourtesy according to whatever online dictionary I just looked up.

Clearly, trying to stop your child from behaving badly does not fall into this category. The parent/s are/is clearly neither ignorant or indifferent, nor is any discourtesy intentional.

Kids can be shitheads, we all know that. As a society, we accept and adjust like we do to bad weather. As a society, we also have a reasonable expectation of how people should respond to these situations.

Someone shoves another person out of the way to avoid being rained on is rude. A person who abuses a parent trying to calm their crying child is rude. A parent who makes no effort to stop their child from upsetting other people is rude. It's not the results society is after, it's the behaviour, you follow me?

Put it this way, Dustin: the comment thread yesterday mentioned bad drivers a lot, too. But I doubt very much that you'd host (let alone write such a passionate introduction to) a diversion on 'bad driving situations you've found yourself in'. Ease back a little and if your rug-bats do go beserk in a shopping centre one day, you might realise that most people aren't glaring as you try to calm 'em down, they're sympathetic.

I'm going to have to weigh in a non-parental peep.

I didn't have children, because I never ever wanted them. No desire to be pregnant. No 'miracle of birth' dream. No burning need to bring a widdle one onto this earth. Plus, I'm someone who offically doesn't *like* babies/kids/teens [big gasp]. I'm no kid hater truly, but I've for sure gone out of my way to not have to deal with another person's child. That's my choice and I shouldn't really have to.

If a person chooses to have a kid, and steward him through to a semi-decent adulthood, then I think the burden lays squarely their shoulders to "control your damn child". It's part of the sacrifice you make in becoming a parent. They don't need to be screeching in my ear. They don't need to be peering over the booth top at a restaurant (and/or jumping up and down while you finish your wine and telling a story to your gal pal). They don't need to be bumping into me or running all over at the store. They shouldn't be yammering on at the late night rated R movie. Deal with them and thier issue then and there... please.

I grew up about 90% with my Grandma as mom (younger sister who was very ill). If I'd tried any crap with her while out, she'd take a wee pinch of my arm and look me dead in the eye and say 'knock it off'. If I couldn't or wouldn't (no negotiation or I gets to pick), we were out of the location and back to car... or whatever. She told me about this stuff time and again by the time I hit teenager.

Another thing I'd like to mention. Don't poop your panties if / when the topic of behaviour, lessons, control, etc possibly comes up in conversation... and I'm comparing points regarding being an educated and responsible dog owner. Good gawd, you'd think that I just called your precious little Ralphie a scum sucking lake creature, or that I want a disertation on your religious beliefs (thanks, I'm agnostic anyway). We're just discussing the training theory Lady. Simmer down.

Ok. One other story. I live not far from a fairly well to do area of So CA. Female bud Nat and I are down at the local 'coffee cup tea leaves cafe'. Parked on their butts about 1.5 foot in front of the one and only door to the business, are two (barefoot to boot) 3 yr old little boys. They've got a good amount of tinkerywidgetplasticythangs spread between them. Person after person is stepping over and around these widdle darlings... with tall cups of hot java in hand mind you... while botox becky and silicone sheila yammer away at a nearby table (like 10+ feet away!) It turned out to be one of those times when I did that thing. Where you speak in your sweetest sing-song voice and say "Oh you poor little things. How could your mother have left you here in danger and just walked away?" And *we* got the stink eye of doom from the "mothers". Control your damn children!!

But there is a BIG difference between the parent who looks embarrassed and tries to calm their kid down and the parent who just drags a screaming kid around (or worse yet, screams back & threatens them).

I can live with loud children, my pet peeve is parents who casually threaten their kids for lagging behind, asking questions, asking for things, crying, playing, making noise, and all other things that come naturally to a 3-year-old bored out of their mind in a grocery store or restaurant.

If your kid is loosing control in the store you might not be able to reason with them but you aren't helpless. If you stop what you are doing and focus on the kid you can usually take care of it. My daughter is 2. She can be loud when she is excited, she can be fussy when she wants to walk/run on her own but can't, and sometimes she yells and cries in public. I take her out of the way (to the extent possible), I speak to her calmly, I give her attention, and I try to redirect her attention from whatever is upsetting her to something else. In store, usually all I have to do is point to something or hand her something and get her to focus on naming the colors of those shirts or something and she quiets down. In a restaurant, the key is to keep her engaged in something and avoid boredom. Yeah, it is harder to carry on an adult conversation at the same time, but you do what you gotta do.

@ wealhtheow
Uhm. I'd like to politely inquire how / why the airline didn't assist you in this
case. You'd hope that they'd do something to help. Guess not. I mean it's not
like you'd want to change plans / flights justfor the frack of it. Isn't a sick kid
with 103 fever kind of a potential biohazard of sorts (gotta be contagious no? stale, recirculated, no filtered cabin air?).
Never mind the fact that with the swollen nose/ears, in the pressurized plane,
makes things kinda dicey for junior in the respiratory dept, never mind the
excrutiating pain. I did a 3 hr trip from southern mexico to so ca, as I was just
catching a cold. They damn near had to take me off in a stretcher to the hospital.
Felt like my brain almost imploded. Anyway. Sincerely not trying to be mean
(or scathing or bitchy). Guess the OCD person in me came out when I read about
the illness and fever in a plane. I'll go ahead and close this msg right about now. ;)

My parents spanked my brother and I, and for YEARS I thought this was a terrible injustice and possibly child abuse.

But one day a coupla years back, I was at a pub with the guy I was dating at the time, and there were these two boys, maybe five or six years old, running around and yelling and causing a ruckus. I turned to my date and said "I never acted that way as a child. My parents woulda tanned my hide."

It was like a light bulb over my head. I don't know if it's right to hit your kids, or to stop everything and drag them home if they start acting up. What I DO know is that I never would have gotten away with misbehaving in a restaurant. I talked back sometimes, sure, but then I learned how very little ground that gained me.

Control your damned kids.

Another ,daughter story:

She was always unusually good in restaurants, so we had not much problem taking her out, even to the (somewhat) fancy place in town when she was maybe 2. But on this day, when I was looking the other way, she somehow managed to tip her chair over backwards. It was a high-backed chair, so her head was protected when it went WHAMMMM!!!! on the floor. The busy restauarnt went dead silent and everyone looked at us. I looked down at ,daughter, whose eyes were the size of dinner plates. I could read her mind: WHATTHEFUCKJUSTHAPPENED?

And then she started to wail.

I picked her up and cuddled her and after a couple minutes she was OK, and we got to continue our dinner. And everything was OK.

I will never forget the look on her face.

I'm not a parent, so I don't know. I feel bad for parents that are clearly at their wit's end dealing with a child. Especially new ones. At the best of times, they consume a lot of energy and can frazzle your nerves. THAT I've experienced when helping take care of kids.
The parents I can't stand are the ones that don't seem to care that their child is CLEARLY misbehaving (although I'm also inclined to give toddlers and a little bit older a pass) and is rude and ill-mannered and they're blithely doing nothing about it. There's a certain type ... an those types are generally boors themselves. And generally, rude ignorant teens are the most irritating boors out there.
HOWEVER. I also have a parent friend and I KNOW she cares, but sometimes, she's just so tired of dealing with her wee ones, that she just tunes out of planet Earth for a little while, just to stay sane I think. I've seen it happen many a time. It seems like she's not paying attention, but it feels like it's a coping strategy.
So I try not to judge too much or be too generalized in my contempt. I know that parenting is hard, I've seen formerly go-get-'em girlfriends just absolutely collapse in tears because they're so tired and frustrated and stressed out and yes, worried all the time about what other people think, & so on, so maybe the full story isn't always clear.
Maybe not all parents have the training or support they need to become good parents. So what can you do sometimes but maybe be a little bit compassionate.

I've told a few kid stories in other threads before, so I'll basically reiterate that I live on a cosmic karma teeter-totter, and that dictates how I see the world. If I get the tiniest smidge poncy, I receive a direct, conclusive and extreme slapdown. Every. Time.

I will be gently admonishing two young tussling pals to behave with kindness and BOOM! My four year old takes a full face slapshot off the rocky road, right next to me. BLUD!

I'll talk glowingly about how I practice the 'Law of Diminishing Returns' with another parent, next morning I have to walk by her while I'm taking vicious pink bootie kicks to the nostril from an upside down daughter who will wear only a doily outside in midwinter. KRUNKCH!

I talked a lot about how I 'planned my daughter' and 'how easy her birth was' and how 'I didn't need drugs'. Nine months of colic. Nine Months. Six hours per night. CREEEEEECH!

You have to take all this shit case by case, give yourself a little love (because nobody the hell else is going to), and say 'There but for the grace of Crawford, goes I'.

And while we're at it, can I share my pet peeve about Other People's Kids?

I taught my kid NOT to interrupt when other people are speaking, particularly adults. This took a lot of patience and time, it was not some overnight thing. I had to hold up a finger, stop and say "do not interrupt" a LOT. Billions of times.

But eventually it becomes a habit and they don't interrupt. They learn how to hold their thoughts. (But on the flip side, adults, you really should reach a stopping point and actually turn your direction to them immediately--I've seen kids stand there forever looking forelorn and waiting to speak.)

So when I'm hanging out with a friend I enjoy and their kid or kids who are old enough to have been taught better keep interrupting CONSTANTLY and the parent reinforces it by stopping (or I have to stop) and answering them, it drives me a bit bananas.

I remember not being able to get a word in edgewise with one friend, whose son was nearly eight. He was more than old enough to have been taught better.

But on a more positive note, I have a single dad friend who has done SUCH a good job raising his two boys. I swear, he has raised the most polite children ever. I asked him how he did it and he just sighed and said "a lot of time and a lot of work." But he was committed, dammit! And it's paid off tremendously. I LOVE those boys. He started young, stayed consistent, and stayed positive and they never interrupt. They stand close by and tap their dad on the shoulder, once. At a stopping point, he turns to them. Then turns back to the conversation. It's wonderful.

I don't mind children in general. They're going to act like children. But I'm in the "control your damn children" camp, especially when it comes to kids that are old enough to be disciplined and should know better.
If your child runs into my table one more time, or throws her wee little flip flop at my head and it lands in my salsa? Lady, we're having words. That is so not okay.
My girlfriend is constantly dealing with this as a manager of a well-known drugstore. Children, unsupervised, running up and down the aisles, pulling shit off of shelves, ripping open packages . . . hell no. Control your damn children.

Babies, I understand they're gonna cry. I have nothing against your baby. But if I actually paid money to be somewhere (movie) then I don't intend to hear your damn child instead of the dialogue. That is not an appropriate place to bring your infant.

In a restaurant, if a BABY is crying, it's irritating sure, but I'm not going to say a word about it or even give the stink eye. Babies cry. But I really hope you don't order dessert.

Don't control your kids. Stop fucking having them. You're ruining the planet.

My masters supervisor has done a lot of work on human hormones in parents vs. non-parents. One thing I always found interesting is the fact that parents (particularly those that are highly involved with their children) tend to have a completely different emotional response to the sound of crying infants--that is, they feel protective and want to help--than do non-parents. We just find the sound damned annoying.

But moms and dads, as much as I don't like the sound of your crying babies, I totally understand that it's out of your control. I promise not to shoot you a dirty look, but please don't be offended if I finish my meal tout suite, and get on my merry way!

I don't really understand this attitude that people who have chosen to undertake the herculean task of continuing the human race should suddenly become pariahs and not be allowed in public.

kids are loud, they are high pitched, they misbehave, they get over tired. some parents are better than others, some kids behave in easier to cope with ways than others.

but humans are social animals, we live in groups, we form tribes and we raise our young in communities.

i don't like screaming kids, but that is my problem, not the kid's or the parent's.

I'm tired of people that think society is some personal theme park designed to cater to their every whim and some huge injustice is occurring when they are faced with the near proximity of a still developing human being. Get the fuck over it. The world around you isn't a spa designed for your comfort and joy, it's a shared environment. Perhaps if you find children horrifying you need to either stay home or seek therapy to increase your tolerance of other beings.

Society is a delicate balance of people who don't all agree on how things should best be done but do their best to get along.

I have to wonder what has happened to the social nature of humanity when righteous indignation is a common response to the presence of families--a vital component of the community.

@lindsay
"when you have a two year old, do you just never get to eat at a restaurant for YEARS!? "

in a word, yes.

@katy
"in the middle of the household sick we thought we had hit a lull in the puke fest to be able to go out to dinner with our girls."

are you nuts? this is why things like flu and the general crud turn into localized epidemics!
shame on you for subjecting the general public to such thoughtless behavior!

... the 'mom stare of death' works well for screaming kids, and if delivered properly will stop one, in mid wind up...but only to be used if the child is not in pain. they can't help that.

another strategy, if one is able to discern that the fit is indeed a 'snit' and not due to some type of physical pain. approaching the child, bend down to eye level and sweetly (grinch grin) tell the child that " you better be glad you're not mine". that usually stops the kid in mid scream, until you can extricate yourself from the vicinity.. leaving both screamer and parent in a muted state of shock... >:)

mother of 15yr old twins, and a 13yr old.

We've been INCREDIBLY lucky with our near-perfect son. In fact, he has acted out ONCE in public. ONCE -- and that was at age four-months, on and AIRPLANE, because of the damned pain of being unable to deal with the way his head felt. Face it... how would YOU feel if you were a four-month-old and you felt like your head was exploding on an airplane, and nobody could EXPLAIN to you what was happening to you and how to make it go away? No one could TELL you how to make the popping stop? Yeah, YOU'D scream and scream and scream, too.

So, yeah, he screamed his bloody head off, and everyone around me on that plane looked at me like they wanted to kill me, and I wanted to die, but mostly because I couldn't make my son's PAIN stop, not because I was INCONVENIENCING the damned strangers on the fucking plane. Fuck them -- I just wanted my son'ts pain to go away. Fortunately, I had been told how to make it go away, and after about twenty minutes, it did: I breastfed him until it stopped.

And that was the ONE AND ONLY instance of my son inconveniencing other people. Ever. For the rest of his existence on this planet -- and he is ten years and ten months old -- he has been a complete and utter angel. And I'm not being biased, everyone else will attest to it. I don't know WHY this is so, except perhaps that Godtopus looked down while I was gestating and said, "This crazy person could not POSSIBLY deal with anything but a PERFECT child. Anything else and she will spontaneously combust. Give her Terry." And thus, I was gifted with Terry:

http://www.facebook.com/maryscottoconnormsoc#!/maryscottoconnormsoc

Until your kids can order from the menus themselves they don't belong in a restaurant. Desperate to go as a parent? Get a babysitter. I get far more irritated with kids-not toddlers-who are assholes and should know better. My mom used to be able to give me a certain look and I would know to cut out whatever bullshit I was doing. We have chalkboard at work and some kid went and rubbed their hands over it. Was I mad? No, but I was mad at the parent who didn't even bother to let us know, so we could fix it. Take responsibility already.

Ingredients for indignation and guaranteed guilt:
1 Three year old toddler who wasn't (and still isn't at age 18) particularily good at 'sitting still' for 3 hours
1 Airplane of the 'no leg room' configuration (run by Air Canada, no less)
1 Extremely bitchy, overly righteous, highly self entitled witch sitting in the seat in front of my son
1 Single mom weary after a week's 'holiday' with her father and step mother

My son wiggled, jiggled and bounced his legs, which caused his foot to connect with seat in front of him. The first time he did it, I distracted him for maybe 15 minutes with toys, and conversation.The next time he did it, the woman turned around and freaked all over him and me in the rudest manner possible. I sat with my hands clamped on my son's legs for the next 45 minutes. Then it happened again....and when the woman in front bolted out of her seat and glared at me, I promptly slapped my son's legs hard enough to leave a mark and he cried disconsolately for the rest of the flight.
Thanks, bitch in front of us, for a memory I will never forget.

meaux said:
"My masters supervisor has done a lot of work on human hormones in parents vs. non-parents. One thing I always found interesting is the fact that parents (particularly those that are highly involved with their children) tend to have a completely different emotional response to the sound of crying infants--that is, they feel protective and want to help--than do non-parents. We just find the sound damned annoying."

1.) I agree this is so true - especially when nursing it's impossible to ignore other kids. It's the strangest innate, visceral response
2.) this seems to fade as the children grow older: i'm only interested if my own children or those I hold dear are crying & don't tune in to other kids anymore.

I don't think people with small children need to be shut-ins. Sure, maybe a 12 month old doesn't belong at a 5 star restaurant, but you should be able to take them out to the average place without getting stares of death. BUT you do need to be willing to sacrifice your enjoyment of the meal for the enjoyment of others. The last time I took my little dude out to eat with us he was only about 7 or 8 months old; just sitting in the high chair in a different place was exiting enough for him. Last weekend we took him out with us for my husband's birthday. He's now 14 months old, walking, full of energy, and not nearly so entertained by people watching. We kept him amused with small toys and playing with the little container of sugar packets, but when he got too fidgety and whiney we took turns letting one of us eat and talk to the grandparents while the other one took him outside to walk around. He's 14 months old, there is no reasoning with him yet and simply leaving doesn't teach him anything, he was ready to leave anyway. He needs to get used to the concept of going out, so I hope to take him out more soon, but I know I need to be prepared to eat cold food, that's just the way it it is. The best part? My 14 month old ate chicken korma, saag paneer and kheer :)
Like everyone else though, I do draw the distinction between infants and children. When they are old enough to really understand consequences, there better be some.

I was one of the ones who chimed in on the other thread about controlling your kids - and for the record, I have two girls, 7 and 11 years old.

There are some great stories and complaints above, but I have a tip for those of you with infants & toddlers re: restaurants. (NOT a fancy restaurant, mind you. We got babysitters for those dinners.)

As SOON as you order your meal, have someone take the child for a walk - outside, to the restroom, just somewhere. Don't wait for them to get antsy.

Walk around for a few minutes, then come back to your table and your food should be at the table shortly. This will buy you a few minutes to eat a hot meal.

Otherwise, if you order and sit there and wait, your child will decide s/he does not want to sit any longer JUST as the food arrives. If you take the walk then, your food will be cold.

@Snuggiepants:
"I taught my kid NOT to interrupt when other people are speaking, particularly adults. This took a lot of patience and time, it was not some overnight thing. I had to hold up a finger, stop and say "do not interrupt" a LOT. Billions of times."

I agree w/you 100% & did the same myself, even in the face of disapproving looks from other people.

(soapbox on)
The idea, intentionally or not, seems to be that parents should befriend their children, & these children should be treated and subsequently act like 40 year old women. So, I'd never admonish my 40 year old friend to "stop interrupting," right? If I did, I'd get laser beams of disgust & my friend would probably stop speaking to me. I think this is the message that parents are being fed - anything short of total acquiescence is not treating kids with respect is tantamount to abuse or neglect.

There's also the idea that we are all equal - a person is a person no matter how small - and therefore deserve to be heard under all circumstances. And, who wouldn't want to be interrupted by the princess of light and human knowledge, my child, right? Wrong: it's rude for people of all ages. Parents don't need to go back to the dark ages of real abuse & neglect, nor do we need to be raising entitled, self-important, narcissistic little pricks.
(soapbox off)

People are annoying

Sounds like someone's at the right website!

I have no issue with being THAT parent. Here's why:

For about the first five years it's tough. There is a lot of guilt and you do look like an asshole for disciplining your child all the time. When a group of kids are acting up, you're the only parent telling your child that they're not behaving appropriately and they may feel a little left out. However, after those initial few years, your child knows exactly what's acceptable when placed in most situations. Now, you as the parent, have no qualms about taking your children anywhere. Eight hour flight? No problem. Four-star restaurant? Sure. You free to take your kids wherever you please. The same people that were sucking their teeth at you when you were telling little Molly to stop throwing mud are now complimenting you on how well behaved your kids are and, as an added bonus, your kids get invited everywhere by their friend's parents. Movies, concerts, excursions to the lake, all because the parents know that your kid won't act like a brat.

/rant

I'm a parent myself, and you know what? Annoying kids annoy me. You know what else annoys me? Overfed yahoos at the table next to mine whose conversation (which can be heard clearly in the next county) suggests to me and everyone else within earshot that we've accidentally wandered onstage in a community dinner theater production of "Glengarry Glen Ross." And yet, I rarely if ever see impassioned Internet threads that are all "you know, 'fuck' is a word that can, in fact, be overused in the public setting." Conversely, if I had a dollar for every time I've seen "Fucking breeders can't control their spawn in restaurants," I'd be able to pay cash to send my own brats to Yale.

Someone upthread said it best: People are annoying.

Dustin, thank you, thank you, thank you. I cannot tell you how tired I am of the control-your-child crowd. There are many offenders out there: the child-free, older parents with revisionist history notions of their children's conduct, Christian fundies, etc. I tolerate you, sorry, you're just going to have to tolerate me and my spawn.

"Also, wanting to be on an airplane without having your seat kicked repeatedly does not automatically make you a "Extremely bitchy, overly righteous, highly self entitled witch""

My mother, mother of four, grandmother of four, was on a flight recently when a toddler was kicking her chair. The father was mortified and apologized. My mother responded "I have grandchildren that age and I understand how hard it is for you and for them to travel. The kicking is no big deal." Now, THAT'S a non-witch response.

I have a three-year-old and a one-year-old. The three-year-old has had many a high-drama meltdown in a store. Please understand that "not responding", i.e. ignoring the child, is often a lot more difficult and strategic than putting on some performance to placate others in the store. Kids often act out to get a rise out of their parents. Ignoring that conduct is a long-term approach to getting rid of the behavior. If I get all mortified and whispery and mad in the store because, heaven forfend, I might be perceived as not doing enough to avert the meltdown, that's precisely the reaction that rewards some children. Also, if you think I'm going home b/c my kid is yelling after a 65-hour workweek when this is my only time to get some victuals, you are sadly, sadly mistaken. I'm your worst nightmare, Melanie et al.: a parent who is not shamed out of stores by a screaming child.

That said, we don't take our kids out to dinner, except maybe at a diner or something (and that's perhaps once every six months). That's leisure, Target is a necessity. I am actually sensitive to disrupting people's leisure time, especially as going out with kids is in no way leisurely for us. Not to mention that we're too cheap to waste the money on food that the kids will likely take two bites of.

I am not surprised that some people beat their kids. The way kids can behave, I am only surprised people don't beat them more.

I humbly step forward to accept the position of universal parent that all non-parents and parents of "perfect" children can hate on, for letting those other kids run around and be disruptive. I see your looks and glares of distaste, I've been getting them for 12 years now. Yes, 12 years.

I'm not a bad parent and I have spent eons trying to teach my son to behave appropriately. His new LA teacher grabbed me in the hall at school yesterday and asked me to please teach Smith Jr. to follow directions and not talk back to her. I told her not to take it personally, he argues with everyone about everything. The first word out of his mouth is "no" 99.99% of the time, followed by some explanation of why you are wrong and he is right.

I still can't take him to the grocery store without having the managers ask me to please keep him in control. Believe me, I make every effort to not bring him anywhere... but that's not really possible. I am embarrassed almost every time I go somewhere with him, but I've learned to hold up my head and plow on, life doesn't stop because your child can't learn to behave. Yes, I said can't learn. I've spent numberless hours being strict, clear, demanding and thoughtful about how to best teach him to behave in public and at home. Every day is a new day and a new opportunity to get it right, some days it's all good and he has made progress, but he still acts like a three year old a lot of the time.

Mr Smith and I are trying, every minute of every day. We are tired all the time, and frankly, I don't give a shit anymore that you've had to witness the unpleasantness or feel inconvenienced. We both work full-time (I have three jobs actually) cause those Dr and therapist visits for Jr don't come cheap (no insurance, you see). Every day I am looking for new ways to teach a child who just doesn't get it. He's brilliantly smart, but socially and behaviorally challenged. Would you be more sympathetic if he was wearing a special helmet and braces on his shoes?

Next time you are feeling all superior because your child would never do that (whether you have kids or not) walk a mile in my shoes. Remember when you see that two-year-old screaming in the grocery check out line, that eventually, her Mom, or Dad, will be able to take her out in public and she will be well-behaved; all kids go through that tantrum phase. Sorry you have to witness it, but frankly the parents are probably pretty stressed out about it too. Most kids learn to get it right, but they need experience. In the meantime, think of me, and instead of hating on parents who are doing their best and, are for the most part, doing the right and only thing for their child at that moment, just send it my way, I can take it.

I've carried Monkey McGee out of a store, under my arm, while she was screaming because I warned her ass once and I wasn't going to warn her again. I left the cart, snatched her up under my arm and we went home. Not acceptable.

@Yossarian

I'd say we agree.

Also - it occurred to me that age coupled with culture/location also has to be a huge factor here. In the environment where we've been raising our kids, it's the overindulgent mindset that seems to be the greatest offense when the kids are young (or at least my biggest pet peeve), followed up with by the "ingore & it'll go away" strategy, especially after the onset of adolescence. Friends of my teen certainly do have MicroManagementMoms, but they're farther and fewer between than when my daughters were younger.

I'm going to be giggling over "I want my white mama" for the rest of the day.

My embarrassing kid story (one of many, I can promise you): When my daughter was two, she and I were walking down the sidewalk and a gentleman of maybe 50 approached us from the opposite direction. The following conversation ensued:

Little J: Mommy, is him a BOY?

Me: Mmm-hmmm.

Little J (VERY seriously): Mmm-hmmm. So does him hab a P*N*S???

Me:...Let's go find your dad.

I mean, what are you gonna do?

I'm not a bad parent

Mrs. Smith, I want to send you and Mr. Smith a big hug, a thumbs-up, a gold star. Parenting is so hard, I know. You're doing a great job, really.

(Please don't read this with any snark. at. all. Just an "i hear ya" from another mom)

Embarrassing moment: Paying at Barnes and Noble, my beautiful, angelic-looking three-year-old blonde child says (clear as a bell) "Shit!" The woman waiting on us just about died laughing.

You probably have a point with the culture and location variance. I tend to fall pretty high on the indulgent side compared to most of the other more conservative and traditional parents I know and I fault apathy more than indulgence for the behavior issues I see. I think our parenting style works as long as there are limits and expectations that you consistently hold the child to. I'll take my toddler to the Mexican restaurant for lunch and let her have guacamole and fajitas but I won't let her leave the booth or get loud.

Still, you can't get too preachy on this issue. There are many different parenting styles and many different kinds of kids. Our Bean is probably 10% due to my brilliant Dad skills and 90% genetic predisposition to not throw tantrums. I try not to judge anyone based on seeing their kids act out (I actually prefer the parents who ignore it to the parents who make idle threats of spanking the kids or leaving them behind if they don't hurry up).

I think the key to the whole issue is the story about samantha t's mom. The parent was apologetic and embarrassed, the other adult was understanding and easygoing. When parents are more sensitive to their child's behavior then everyone else there is not a problem. The problems arise when the parent isn't considerate enough or the bystander is too sensitive. Someone (or both parties) are an asshole in that situation, to be determined on a case-by-case basis.

Yossarian said:
"Someone (or both parties) are an asshole in that situation, to be determined on a case-by-case basis."

Agreed. And, I think this applies to just about any interaction I've ever had at work, too
:-)

Stacey - I know all members of my family would howl laughing, regardless of whether one of our own or a stranger did it.

My daughter and I were out for a walk the other day and she, alleged "big girl", was out-and-about sans diaper. About 1/4 of a block from our apartment, she stopped and, very calmly, peed on the ground. I didn't want to freak her out, so I just took her by the arm and we sang "Accidents Happen" from the "Elmo Uses the Potty" DVD we have on (apparently without effect) in the car. What can you do?

I don't really understand this attitude that people who have chosen to undertake the herculean task of continuing the human race should suddenly become pariahs and not be allowed in public.

Idleprimate, I think you misunderstand the ire here. As a few have stated, it's not that we think parents shouldn't be allowed in public, it's that they and their progeny should act appropriately when in public and all too often they don't. IMHO it's often a result of poor parenting.

kikz, I love your "you better be glad you're not mine" suggestion. I will have to keep that in memory for future use.

As I don't have children yet, I have a question for all you parents: Is it rude to offer assistance to those parents who you feel are failing in dealing with a situation?
I was recently on a a flight where there was a young child, 2 or 3 years old I would guess, a few rows in front of me who after we leveled out just started wailing. I don't know if it was because he was in pain (I doubt it) or seperated from his father and brother, but he just wouldn't stop crying. Now I'm a sympathetic person, and I blocked it out to the best of my ability for at least an hour, but it just continued while the mother apperently did little to stop it. I couldn't understand why she didn't get up and walk the kid around, if for no other reason to try something different to calm him, but she just sat there. After awhile it took all the power in my mind not to get up and an offer to walk the kid up and down the aisle myself in an effor to calm him. Would this have been wrong?

" After awhile it took all the power in my mind not to get up and an offer to walk the kid up and down the aisle myself in an effor to calm him. Would this have been wrong?"

Now, why would Mom have done nothing to stop the child from screaming, presumably right in her ear? Plainly, something wasn't working. If your offer came off as a sincere offer to help the mother, sure, why not? If your offer comes off as "Well, I know I can do this better than you can" or martyrdom, then do everybody a favor by sending Mom and drink and piping down.

There are just some places that children don't belong.

Bars, for instance. If your lovely little miracle wanders over to me in a bar, I'm buying his or her little azz a drink. That's what bars are for. ( Well, there is that picking up one night stand element to it, too. But I draw the line at pedophilia.)

The ten o'clock showing of an R rated movie. If you think a child screaming during a screening is cool, you're gonna love my screaming at you.

Any restaurant where the prices start above $20 and there's an extensive wine list. I'm paying for the ambiance. I want my creme brulee without stinking diaper smell wafting over the back of my booth. (Exception being made for the 80 year old geezer I'm dating, who I'm macking for a new car.) I don't interrupt your Chucky Cheese time with political debate forums, don't show up at Springfield Grille and interupt my dinner with a debate about Barney vs. Yo Gabba Gabba.

In short, your kids are only there because you are too selfish to recognize that they don't always want to hang with you or experience the finer things in life. Give em what they want the Jungle gym at McD's and a happy meal. We'll all be happier for it.

Note: I've never said anything to a parent about their kid and the way the kid acts. First, people are fucking crazy and you never know who the violent psychos are. Second, I can't see it ending well. If the parent is trying and the kid is still bugging, there's not a lot to be done. You've embarrassed exactly the kind of parent who makes an effort and doesn't need to feel worse about something he/she really can't control.

And if the parent doesn't give a shit, saying something to him/her isn't gonna make him/her see the light. They'll just tell you to fuck off and keep on going. You could complain to management, but most managers are too gutless to say anything to parents about misbehaving children. They'd probably get a standing ovation from the other patrons if they did, but most won't do it.

Again, I'm far more annoyed by adults in public than kids. Kids are not the only ones who don't use their indoor voice. They are not the only ones who get in the way or run into people or just generally act like assholes. When kids get a little unruly, I just vacate the area as quickly as possible (in a store, at least). If we could get adults to act like adults, that would be a huge improvement. Then we can worry about the kids.

The only thing more annoying than people who can't control their kids are the smug, self-righteous people posting on here about how people have no right to be annoyed by children. No, fuck YOU, McSquish. I hope your undisciplined child makes your life a living hell when it becomes an undisciplined teenager.

@UnlessTheMoonFalls - It really depends on the kid. I've seen parents walk their clam little darlings up and down the aisle to great effect, but I know if I ever let on to my wiggleworm that running up and down the aisles was an option, I'd never get him back in the seat. Also, those aisles are pretty narrow, and I feel bad enough walking up and down the aisle just with my own ass bumping into people's elbows and laptops. Add in a flailing toddler, and I'd just feel like I was disrupting everyone and everything. That said, after that long a time, I'd probably try anything. This is why I load up my phone with sesame Street and Monkey Preschool Lunchbox before any flight. However, I'd err on the side of assuming that the mom just knows her kid better than you do. Now, If you are sitting in a row with more space than hers and you want to offer to switch, or you want to offer a toy or game that might help, I'm sure it would be appreciated. Believe me, that mom doesn't want to listen to the crying any more than you do.

My mom has always called out parents with misbehaving kids in public. I'm not talking about babies crying in restaurants, I mean eight year olds wreaking havoc in Target with no parents in sight. She would seriously go up to the kid, ask where his/her parents were, and march them back to the parents. It mortified me as a kid (especially b/c she would often gesture to me and my sister as examples of well-behaved kids, although we acted up at times, too), though sometimes I wish I had the guts to do the same now that I'm an adult.
On the other hand, I'm about seven months pregnant and after reading this thread, I'm a little bit terrified about ever bringing my kids out in public. I knew getting into this that fancy dinners were going to be out of the question for a while, and I'm prepared for that, but I also think I would have a breakdown if some stranger lectured me about my baby crying in a restaurant.

@Craig - No one said my kids are ill-behaved. When I walk into our local breakfast eatery, the old-timers who hang out there all day always say "Look, it's the good boys!" Yes, we go out to nice restaurants from time to time...at 5pm, when the restaurant is mostly empty, and our kids are most likely to behave well. We also get our bill long before the food comes, so that if little boy patience runs out, so can we. I get annoyed by undisciplined, out-of-control kids ricocheting off the walls too (don't get me started on people who plop their 7 year olds in the toddler playspace to run roughshod all over the littler kids).

My issue is with the people who are annoyed by the very existence of kids. Why is it ok to proclaim that people with kids shouldn't go out in public? Even a well-behaved kid is going to make a little noise...but so are you. That's what you're doing when you talk. And the person who was annoyed at a kid looking over the back of a booth at her? Yes, if a flip-flop appears in your oatmeal, that is completely out of line, but just looking at you? Kids shouldn't be allowed in a restaurant because they might look at you? Seriously?

As I said before, I'm sick of parents getting singled out for so much hostility while being surrounded by so much annoying adult behavior. Obnoxious people suck, at any age, but part of going out in public is dealing with other people. The next time you want to get all judgmental on people with kids, look at your own public behavior and try to decide just how much of a delight you are to eat near.

"Mrs. Smith - extremely honest. Smart, poorly-behaved children often become...Rahm Emanuel. Or Patty Smith. I went to grammar school with a poorly-behaved, socially awkward kid everybody made fun of. He ended up at MIT. Worse things can happen than having a "rude" kid.

Posted by: samantha t at September 15, 2010 11:27 AM"

Oh samantha t, from your keyboard to God's ears! He's taking the SAT this year (in 7th grade) to try to get into Duke TiP.

And, @mswas, thanks so much for your support, no snark taken.

Re: offering assistance to weary parents with freaked out, unhappy kids.

I honestly think it depends on who is offering the assistance.

Take me, for instance. I sometimes don't even have to offer, I'm just asked, desperately. I'm HAPPY to help, seriously. I'm just thinking in my head that I'm glad those years are behind me and now I only have to glare back at people who glare at my sometimes-pink-haired, always nose-pierced 15 year old (PARENT LESSON NUMBER 1: CHOOSE BATTLES CAREFULLY).

I'm 40. Female. Large-breasted, but not in a silicone way. In a "I nursed a baby and gravity had its dirty way with me and it looks like I'm smuggling two melons right around my middle" way. I've been a teacher for about forever. I AM a mom. Sometimes I have to fight the immediate instinct to reach out and help without asking.

There have been times when I haven't wanted to help, it's true. When I already have a headache and am stressed and assy and just want to get away from the child and think "better her than me."

But lots of times, I think life would be easier if more people tried to distract an unhappy child or just picked up the stuff the poor parent is trying to put in their cart that is now all over the floor. (You don't have to necessarily help with the KID, you could help with the other crap the parent is trying to do.)

And now for the Little Snuggie on a plane story.

I was flying across the country with her when she was five months old. Now this was a GOOD baby. Seriously. Friends and strangers would remark on how laid-back and happy she was all the time. She rarely cried.

So I wasn't too worried. I did get those horrible looks you get when you board a plane babe in arms. They're thinking "dear God, not next to me, dear God not next to me."

I was seated next to a man in his 50s traveling on business. For some reason Little Snuggie fell in LOVE with this guy. SERIOUS fucking love with him. She cooed at him, grinned her gummy grin, babbled at him, declared her love. He would smile politely and continue working on his laptop (which was pretty rare in 95, by the way).

I was wrestling with her the entire flight to keep her physically within the confines of our little space, my lap. But my God, she wanted in this man's lap. She wanted to feel his mustache, kiss his cheek, hug his neck. I don't know what it was.

At one point, he did tell me he was a father and a grandfather, but he didn't seem as enamored with Little S as she was with him. He didn't seem annoyed, either. So I kept wrestling her.

She loved rice cakes back then. Don't ask me. Plain. I gave one to her to gum while the plane was taking off. She kept trying to share it with him. Over and over and over again. Finally, she moved too quickly for me and was able to press the mushy edge of the rice cake up against his face.

God, I was mortified. I apologized all over myself, he just muttered and wiped his cheek. She was a HUGE baby and I was in the aisle seat. I couldn't even get her further away from him.

So I walked her up and down a bit, while she kept straining to look back at her new lover.

I had to sit down again eventually. And quick as a flash, the moment I did, her chubby little hand came out and mashed something on his laptop.

The screen went blank. He actually gasped. I gasped. Little Snuggie mimicked our gasping. I was again apologizing to save my life. He actually didn't speak. He closed the laptop and turned his face to the window.

I felt so horrible. So even when they aren't crying, they're messing things up!!! Where ever you are, Mr. Business Man, I'm sorry my daughter fell so in love with you that she did desperate things to get your attention.

I really think it was the mustache.

@ Mrs.Smith - I also meant to send support your way earlier. Kids are people too, and sometimes they just are who they are. I for one will also be giving you sympathetic looks if I see you out and about.

@Melanie - But you're not saying that all adults should avoid going out in public! I'm not saying you can't be annoyed by kids when they are annoying. I am! But the comments that imply (or outright state) that people with small children should never be seen in public at all, much less at a restaurant, really bother me. Yes, kids can be annoying. Kids can also be great! But blanket statements about when/how all people with kids should be allowed to leave the house are ridiculous.

No one says:

"20-somethings shouldn't be allowed in nice restaurants because they're loud, get drunk and obnoxious, and don't tip."

"Smokers shouldn't be allowed in nice restaurants because I'm paying for ambiance and I want to smell my $30 entree, not the ashtray next to me. You can't have the same life you had pre-smoking!"

"Couples shouldn't be allowed in nice restaurants because they either make out at the table or argue loudly, and I'm paying too much to have to watch that."

So why is it ok to make such blanket statements about people with young kids? Not everything a kid does is by default bad behavior or insufficient parenting. Looking at another patron, for instance. Accidentally dropping a toy car on the floor. Saying, a bit too loudly, "Potatoes!" Accidentally bumping your chair, once, then apologizing.

Now, if my kid is flinging things and screaming his head off, I need to get him out of there, and believe me I will, as soon as possible without skipping out on the bill or physically injuring him or someone else. But don't hate on kids just for being there.

The person behind you doesn't want to hear about your stupid boss for an hour either, but they do their best not to listen and suck it up, because they don't have any more right to their booth than you have to yours. Presumably you can do the same.

And with that, I'm done. I've already said too much on this subject.

@McSquish:

"No one says:

[...]

"Smokers shouldn't be allowed in nice restaurants because I'm paying for ambiance and I want to smell my $30 entree, not the ashtray next to me. You can't have the same life you had pre-smoking!""

Actually that's exactly what the state of California (and I believe several other states) have said.

@katy
"Fuck you kikz, go jugde your own holier than thou parenting practices. Next time I hope it's someone like you who gets our sick."
~~~~~~~~~

touch a nerve katy?
nice mouth, you set such a fine example of adult responsibility and restraint for your children. i'm sure your parents and in-laws are so proud! :)

you did state;
"in the middle of the household sick we thought we had hit a lull in the puke fest"

when i read the 7-10day post onset and 3day lull i was almost prepared to cut ya some slack, as sometimes puke-fests can retreat only to regroup w/a vengeance, unless ya know.. ya don't know, or have a crap Ped/NP who didn't bother to tell ya...but due to your less than restrained reply, i stand by my initial intuition.

are you also the type who (the school nurse loves too, btw) doses a kid w/tylenol and sends 'em to school w/a fever,a snot waterfall for a nose and/or coughing fits, taking out an entire class? or maybe you let your kid go play at someone's house or bday party (just after a bout of strep) w/o informing the host of the recent illness?

"holier than thou" has nothing to do with keeping your sick/germy family home, which is where they need to be unless it absolutely can't be avoided. it does however have to do with genuine concern for your family and common courtesy for others.

@Melanie:

my peeve comes up in your comments when you think, since people get annoyed at things adults do, why not get annoyed at things kids do.

well, I have brain shattering news for you, children are not short adults, they're kids. they're loud, impulsive, short attention spanned, easily frustrated, curious, shame free dynamos.

some kids are "better behaved", some are shy, some are introverted, some are quieter observers, and people love those kids because they adhere to a seen and not heard credo. and newsflash, sometimes when you see a "well-behaved" kid, that is just terrified because his survival instinct is at work because his parents kick the snot out of him if he "gets out of line" by, you know, acting like a kid.

no one is saying parents don't have jobs to do, or that sometimes children are really difficult to endure. but kids aren't adults and they aren't robots, and if you succeed in making a kid resemble a robot or and adult, you may not have done that kid a favour.

Snuggiepants: The same thing happened with my daughter on Metronorth once with a very, very uptight corporate guy (I'm a corporate gal, but not uptight). She became obsessed with his Blackberry and kept grabbing for it. It was cheek-by-jowl on the train and we truly couldn't get up and move. He was not amused (but a lot of other people on the train were).

I just want to add one thing to this highly entertaining diversion:

Parents: please, please, PLEASE don't take your children to grown-up movies. Specially infants who are bound to wake up by, you know, giant explosions or gunshots or loud music and are liable to start crying in the middle of the goddamned theater.

Listen, I get that you want to go watch a movie. But you know what? Sometimes you just can't. Either find a babysitter or just rent a movie. Taking a baby to a movie theater is incredibly stupid, rude and inappropriate.

@unlessthemoonfalls,

hmmm, that's a touchy one and hard to assess not having been there. confined space, went on for an hour ya say? i think an hour is excessive. it could've been ear pain, in that case excusable on the child's part, but none the less nerve shattering. carefully timed/dosed OTC baby meds on flights, aceto/tylenol can make for quiet, comfortable little ones. the only remedies for ear pain, area pacifier or drinking.

i think, a question to one of the flight attendants might have been in order. although nothing they could do, other than ask the mother if the child were all right...
did she need anything to help, water, juice, snack, a move to unoccupied seats elsewhere in the plane.... and possibly that would've motivated the blockhead to attend to her screaming kid in some way.

...tentatively yes, you could ask, return trip frm restroom.. if there something you could do for the mom, like "could i get an attendant for you?", or heartfelt empathy for their situation, sometimes helps. "poor baby, just not havin a good day" usually elicits some response/explanation.

if ear pain, you can always suggest they try meds on their return flt.

an ipod or earplugs for you.... sigh.

@ L wit an E:
We've run into this question before in months past [big laugh].
You better watch out. I might move up to the Pacific NW and
*then* what are we gonna do?!
If nothing else, 'tis good to know there's like minded individuals
out there.

Btw. Lest anyone think I'm an intolerant kid tripping dog lovin nutter,
you guys would crack up if you knew where I worked. I feel a bit squickey
about giving it up here on the Nets. Suffice that it's pretty damn "family"...
a ginormous Corp... and very entertainment related. Granted, I'm behind
the scenes in the HR division, but I have frequent opportunity to have to
run into children. I survive. But if I'm out and about trying to live my life,
I'm going to do what I can to not have to deal with someone elses bullcrap
(whether it's smokers, bratty kids, face macking teens, rude drivers or
aggressive dogs).

Thanks for the space to blurt out my opinion / contribution here on Pajiba.

Later on Pajiba Comment Diversions: Control Your Pet.

And tomorrow: Control Your Spouse.

Stay tuned!

brite: I'd like to introduce you to a concept known as sarcasm. And perhaps you'd like to meet my other friend, hyperbole. It doesn't appear that you are acquainted.

I find it more annoying when kids are acting up in places they aren't supposed to be. Don't bring your 3 year old to a PG-13 or R rated movie because you couldn't get a sitter. Don't take your toddler out to dinner at 8:00 or later. Don't bring the kids to watch the comedian, or concert, or play that is not appropriate for children. I recently went to see West Side Story on Broadway, and the website said 'not recommended for children under age 13', and of course I saw many children younger than 13, one looked like she was only 3 or 4. The play is not for kids, take them to see Lion King or Mary Poppins or whatever else is age appropriate. I totally understand kids will cry, act up, whatever, sometimes, but if the parents just had some common sense it would be greatly appreciated.

My other complaint is, if the child is acting up, please take them out so they don't ruin everyone else's dinner, movie etc. Actually the problem is not the kids, but the parents who are not doing their job. It's the hardest job in the world to be a parent, but you gotta suck it up and do what you're suppose to do, so these kids don't grow up to be spoiled, entitled adults.

so, is this some sort of epidemic, parents bringing kids to evening showings of non-kid movies? can't say I've ever witnessed it. maybe it hasn't spread to Canada yet.

there does seemed to be a surprising number of pajibans who really fret that when they go to see human centipede, children will distract them from enjoying the film

"I had to take my 2.5 year old on a cross-country plane flight with a 103 degree fever." No, you didn't. You chose to take your sick child on the flight. Once you decide to have kids, your life is now no longer yours, get the fuck over it, its called parenthood. You don't get to do all the things you used to do. You have responsibilities, if your kid can't behave in a restaurant get take out, or heaven forbid cook. If your kids can't fly, then drive or don't go. If you want an evening out get a babysitter, your child will survive without you for a few hours. When I was in college I did my laundry at a place down the street. It had a sign that said "if you can't control your kids, than your kids are smarter than you." I see it proven every day.

Being a parent is hard work. You have got to start early with them about what acceptable behavior is. You can't let them get away with everything and then all of the sudden make them change because you decided they were too old for that. I wouldn't like it if someone did that to me so I won't do it to my kids.

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