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The Geek vs. The Ignoramus. Topic: Alan Moore’s Watchmen

A Civil Conversation / Twig Collins and Dustin Rowles

Book Reviews | February 27, 2009 | Comments (51)


Dustin: A couple of months ago, after a lot of goading from some of the site’s comic-book contingent, I forced myself to read Alan Moore’sWatchmen. I had planned on reviewing it, but to be honest, it wasn’t a hornet’s nest I was particularly keen on poking with a stick. It’s not a battle I expect to win. I’ve read two comic books in my life, now. V for Vendetta, which I dug, and Watchmen, which disappointed me. It could’ve been the expectations — everything I’d heard was that it was the holy grail of graphic novels, and even the cover advertises that it was one of Time magazine’s best novels of the century — or it could’ve been that the comic book itself is simply lackluster.

I didn’t get it. I tore into the first half of Watchmen, thrilled at the prospect of finding something new, something great, something that would completely change my perception of comic books and graphic novels, but the longer I read it, the more disappointed I grew. It’s darker, it’s better illustrated, and it’s a little more layered than what I’d expect of a traditional comic book, but there was nothing transcendent about it. And for all the hype surrounding it, the ending felt very anti-climactic.

So, my questions to you, Twig, are as follows: Is Watchmen important for its historical significance, for ushering in the more complex graphic novels? Or, if you picked it up for the first time today, having read (as I assume you have) a lot of other graphic novels, would it compare favorably? In other words, is Watchmen as good as it gets? And also, I kept waiting for the big, grand political statement, and Watchmen left me very unsatisfied. What is it that the novel is trying to say?

Twig: I’ve been told, by friends who are more into the DC Comics ‘Golden Age’ than I am, that the more of a comic history buff you are, the more you get out of Watchmen. So I’m not sure if someone who’d never read a graphic novel before would get as much out of Watchmen, or on as many levels. The more superhero knowledge you have, the more you’re into comic books, the more you will probably appreciate it. I’m not as into the old comics as I am into most of the post-Watchmen/Dark Knight Returns stuff, so I was pleasantly surprised at how much I still enjoyed the book.

Ironically, despite knowing a good deal about Watchmen and its various plot points, I didn’t bother sitting down and reading it through until very recently. I regret that I’m not old enough for that firsthand knowledge of the state of comics before and after Watchmen to provide an opinion there. I’ve only ever existed in a world where comic-book heroes are ironically self-aware, not only of themselves but of comic book tropes as a whole, the suits, the capes. If — and it seems to be the popular view — Alan Moore did create the first comic book great enough to turn all ones that followed into graphic novels, to “grow up” the world of superheroes, than he certainly deserves a lot of praise for it.

“Real life is messy, inconsistant, and it’s seldom when anything ever really gets resolved. It’s taken me a long time to realize that.”

This was a quote from one of the heroes in the book, and it was — for me — the real ‘moral’ of Watchmen, and the kind of moral that generally doesn’t show up, especially in cape-and-tights books. Morally ambiguous stories are not an easy or even potentially satisfying story to write — I’m sure a lot of people hate the Comedian outright, or Ozymandias, or Dr. Manhattan, but Moore still refused to make any of them — even the potentially meaningless side-characters who could have just been a kind of throwaway greek chorus — anything less than real human beings. I think that’s the effectiveness of Alan Moore’s writing, and it’s only really evident when comparing someone like Rorschach with the copycats that popped up in his wake, the 1990s (and, sadly, today’s) trend of making heroes darker and more ‘extreme’ and nihilistic until they are just self-parody. Half the impact of a book like Watchmen can be seen in the failed attempts to recreate it.

For me, unlike V for Vendetta, Watchmen had little to do with politics at all, and was much more about character. One of the larger scenes involving the government seemed like something right out of Dr. Strangelove, an absurd parody save for that chilling hint of truth. I never felt like the government was meant to be anything other than a roadblock of stupidity and insanity — and I’ve heard this had to do with Moore’s experiences during Margaret Thatcher’s time in office, but again, that’s a time and a place I never lived in. The government in Watchmen, unlike V for Vendetta, does not have absolute power — the characters do. Ozymandias, Dr. Manhattan and — to an extent — Rorschach are given the chance to do things and influence the world in ways many of us dream about — successfully fighting crime on the streets, being a wealthy, scientific genius, having the power to change things on a molecular level. This absolute power corrupts absolutely — or does it?

I’m not generally a person who sings the praises of ‘classics.’ A lot of times, I don’t think they’re necessarily the best representation of the idea they’re trying to put across, just the first, deserving of that respect but no more. At the moment, I’m in the middle of Vaughn’s Ex Machina and getting just as much out of it as Watchmen. Still, I found the book to be quite emotionally compelling and very dense, deftly weaving together decades and narratives and viewpoints without ever coming off as impenetrable. I’ve discussed just the tiniest sliver of the ideas thrown around in the book — there’s so much in the story, and most of it very easily accessible.

The importance of Watchmen is in translating a superhero narrative — usually so black and white — into that ‘messy, inconsistent and rarely resolved’ business most of us would call real life. It portrays a world that can be bleak and vicious, but is still anchored in hope and love, the ‘one inch’ of V for Vendetta that endures past everything. Watchmen has great villains who retire to live small, unnoticed lives, government-sponsored heroes who are gleefully amoral, and trusted and beloved heroes who commit horrifying atrocities that may be justified in the final tally. I think Dr. Manhattan’s final words to Ozymandias are a challenge to the reader. What was won? Who was saved? It’s all left up to us to decide.

Dustin: Twig, that was amazingly well put. With complete sincerity, I find it very satisfying that you were able to read so much into Watchmen. This is my complete ignorance of comic books and graphic novels speaking, but I wasn’t able to get much out of it beyond facile word balloons and brilliant illustrations. That’s not a knock against the medium, it’s a knock against me for being unable to read into Watchmen so much of what you (and others) got from it. With my knowledge of superheroes and their tropes relatively limited to the present, the darker characterizing didn’t ring many bells for me. I appreciate how much the novel has expanded the genre, but beyond that, I didn’t get much out of the narrative.

With the exception of Rorschach, the characters didn’t feel particularly human to me, but that may have a lot to do with my accessibility problems. I recognized the moral ambiguity, especially in The Comedian, but —the first Nite Owl, notwithstanding (the chapter from his autobiography was my favorite part of the book) — I didn’t find anything particularly human about any of them. They didn’t seem to have much of a soul, and their motivations were unclear. And Dreiberg’s love story felt horribly tacked on and clumsy.

More than that, from a narrative standpoint, Watchmen didn’t seem to go anywhere. It seemed to me that Alan Moore created these characters, and even if I admit (as I do) that they were important from a historical standpoint, they didn’t seem to do very much over the course of a very lengthy book. I’ll grant that it was a remarkable origins story, but everything after was flat. What was the significance of the pirate story? It felt like footnotes from another book. Why the alternate history if he wasn’t going to tease that out more? Why, when it seemed that much of the point was to have superheroes with no superpowers, did he feel the need to create Dr. Manhattan, who has more abilities and invincibility than even Superman? Indeed, when the focus wasn’t on Rorschach, I found Watchmen not only a little underwhelming, but boring. I read the first 100 pages in one sitting, but it took me two weeks to finish the rest of it.

That said, I am excited about Zack Snyder’s movie. I honestly want to see these characters come to life in a medium I do understand in the hopes that I, too, can find what you found so rewarding in the novel up on the big screen. (And don’t worry, folks — I won’t be reviewing it). But I am worried. I’m worried that — in an effort to satisfy the Watchmen base — Snyder will hew too closely to the novel and alienate those of us who love good comic-book movies, like Iron Man and The Dark Knight, but don’t necessarily get into the comic-books themselves. And given the movie’s purported run-time (two hours and 45 minutes), I fear that Snyder — like many directors who have adapted novels too faithfully before him — will get so bogged down in replicating the details and minutia of the novel that he’ll fail to bring the story or the characters to life. That it will simply feel too mechanical.

Still, I’m optimistic. I’m honestly hoping to find, in the film, the transcendent magic that eluded me in the novel.

And so, Twig, with a lot of appreciation to you for bringing the true geek perspective, I turn the final word back to you. What are your hopes for the movie? Would you be disappointed if Snyder strayed from the novel too much? And what do you think of the cast? Do you think they’re a little young to be playing washed-up superheroes?

Twig: Dustin, I’m sure there’s a lot of devoted Alan Moore fans out there who can do an even better job than I can of making the case for this book. I think - like a lot of classics - that it can still be appreciated for its innovations and the books that it has inspired, even if the thrill is just not there while reading it.
I have to wonder if this book didn’t play better back in the age it was written. Not that nuclear annihilation still isn’t possible, but I think there was a certain Cold War ambiance that’s disappeared from the world, that sense of the clock inevitably ticking down that’s been replaced now with other threats. Or maybe it really is a comic-book frame-of-mind, that obsession of ‘otherness’ and inhumanity in the book, how characters like Ozymandias and Dr. Manhattan choose to examine and deal with a world they don’t feel they belong to, or can connect with. Then again, Daniel Day-Lewis’ character said a lot of the same things in There Will Be Blood, and no one blinked twice. So maybe it’s the blue skin.

I’ve heard some good early press on the movie, and I’m cautiously optimistic. I can understand why Alan Moore feels the nuance gets stripped away in the transition from comic book to movie - a lot of it does, it has to (and after League of Extraordinary Gentlemen I’m surprised he didn’t start firebombing). But I think that doesn’t mean the essentials can’t remain - just look at the ‘Valerie’ sequence from V for Vendetta. That’s still got all the power of the original work. I’ve never been much for nitpicking - I want movies to work, I really like being entertained. Bring me the emotional resonance of the original, give me the sense that some attention was paid to why the original work was so important, and I don’t care if the actors don’t look exactly like they do in the book, or if certain events are altered or ignored. I appreciate it, when a certain line is left in, or a specific detail remembered, but it’s by no means a dealbreaker.

If the movie runs long I don’t think it’s because of catering to the fans as it is that trying to capture what makes Watchmen interesting is what makes the book interesting — a seriously intricate plot evolving over an extended time frame. It wasn’t considered unfilmable for so long for no reason - some stories just don’t squeeze down into two hours (hellooo Pride and Prejudice). It has to be tough for any screenwriter to decide what to abandon for the sake of time, and if the pared-down story that remains is still the essential Watchmen.

It’s a dark story without a truly iconic protagonist. It has neither the inherent charm of ‘Tony Stark: My Jet has a Pole’ or a twisted, brutally fascinating character like the Joker, both of which were big, big carrying points for those movies. I could place a bet where the majority of any added comic beats will come from (Nite Owl II) but other than that I’m pretty much just curious to see how it’s all going to work — and really interested to see what they do with the ending, if they have decided to change it. Even if the movie fails to come together, I don’t think anyone can say the director and the crew didn’t do their absolute best. Which is really all this fan is asking for, and enough to get me out there on opening night.

Twig Collins is an illustrious Eloquent and frequent guest contributor who stays crunchy, even in milk. Dustin Rowles, whose ass Twig just wiped from the floor, is the publisher of Pajiba.


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Comments

Nicely written you two. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Preacher, Twig.

Posted by: Skitz at February 27, 2009 2:08 PM

I think that was probably the most regular thing I've ever written in this joint.

I am a grown-up!

Posted by: Skitz at February 27, 2009 2:09 PM

Wow...I think I'm in awe. That was not only a really well constructed back and forth examination of Watchmen, but the perfect article to show to people who are expecting "Dark Knight III" out of Watchmen.

The story is bleak, messy, and downbeat; but it has a lot of good messages about morality and some truly compelling interpersonal drama with superheroes.

And Twig, allow me to be the first to say I'm truly jealous you got to cross swords with Dustin. C'mon Rowles, I can whup your ass in Harry Potter or 24, which is it gonna be? (Or the collected works of R.L. Stine, if you're so inclined.)

Posted by: Mike R. at February 27, 2009 2:12 PM

I'm not much of a comic book fan, but I seriously enjoyed Watchmen, for pretty much all the reasons Twig said and because I love the way it skewers the hubris inherent in a lot of the big ideas of modernity.

Also, re: Dustin - you should check out Hayao Miyazaki's Nausicaa. I think it's actually better than Watchmen as a novel - the characters feel more real, the worldview is more mature (in the sense of actual maturity of thought, not in the sense of "violence + tits" mature,) and the story is much less "comic book-y." It sort of feels like a cross between Herodotus' Histories and Princess Mononoke. Definitely something worth checking out.

Posted by: Joe the Plumber at February 27, 2009 2:18 PM

Very nicely done, both of you.

(On a side note: I have absolutely nothing interesting to contribute lately. Rad.)

Posted by: Sean at February 27, 2009 2:20 PM

I enjoyed Watchmen, and I only read it for the first time a couple weeks ago. I, too, was blown away by the autobiography, but also by the parallel comic book that Dustin doesn't get. In and of itself, its a fantastically gory story on a familiar trope; in the context of the story, it mirrors the self-importance these costumed adventurers have imbued themselves with, even though the world doesn't need them, and they ultimately harm the fabric of society.

The point isn't the history behind the book, though I'm sure that's a valid note, but the arbitrariness of government and law enforcement. Who watches the Watchmen? Especially since the Watchmen more or less appointed themselves, with little to no qualifications, much like a government has, though a government has the decades and centuries of survival to legitimize its position.

Posted by: Kat at February 27, 2009 2:36 PM

Actually...Dustin, more than reading more graphic novels, you should try Pratchett's Discworld, particularly the City Watch volumes. I think it would be a better parallel for you than trying to track trends in a medium you don't enjoy.

Posted by: Kat at February 27, 2009 2:37 PM

I agree. Good job to both.

As for the significance of the pirate story, it's really a parallel to Ozymandias. It all comes together at the end, maybe Ozymandias' last panel, where he mentions having a dream about a ship with black sails sailing towards him (or something along those lines).

To sum, in his efforts to save humanity, he esstentially became the monster he was trying to save them from, just like the pirate in the comic.

Posted by: Forbiddendonut at February 27, 2009 2:39 PM

I read Watchmen and I was able to appreciate it, but (and I totally understand that there is probably no one out there who will be with me on this point) I found it horribly insulting to it's female characters and that it betrayed a certain attitude towards women on the part of Moore that I really didn't enjoy. It's part of the reason I haven't made it a point to seek out anything else he's written. All the women, even the ones who do wield power, are portrayed as sex hungry manipulators who can only berate or comfort their male companions. And yes, I realize that some will tell me that's a simplistic reading, but even throw-away characters (the wife of Rorschach's psychiatrist, for example) are drawn in this way.

I had a hard time figuring out if this was because of the writer or because of when the book was written, but I am hoping that Snyder takes some liberties with the female characters to make them more relatable besides changing Silk Spectre II's costume and taking away her smoking pipe.

Posted by: Genny (also Rusty) at February 27, 2009 2:40 PM

I think this may be more an issue with age than with familiarity with the golden age of comics. I'm not a person who knows the seventeen or twenty incarnations of the Green Lantern or the back history of Superman from issue blahdiddyblahblah. But I am someone who was an adult (albeit a young adult) during the Reagan/Thatcher years, and so Watchmen really resonated with me.

This country, and I'm extrapolating this to include the UK, too, wanted a father figure, a strong authority to turn to who could make everything right again. We didn't want to look too closely and actually see behind the curtain. We just wanted someone who made us feel safe, and we got what we asked for, with some rather devastating consequences, IMO. That is the message of Watchmen, to me. When you take a nuanced world and reduce it to black-and-white, good and evil, you give away more power and put yourself in more danger than you will ever recognize at that moment. We're always afraid of the obvious, the stranger who will come and steal away our children in the night. When really, it's good old Uncle Bob who's sneaking into their rooms at night and molesting them that is the bigger, more likely danger.

Posted by: Wednesday at February 27, 2009 2:42 PM

Batman:The Dark Knight Returns and The Watchmen came out at the same time-I've always thought that Miller's book was better. More entertaining, more of a tweak to the world of comics, and more influential. Maybe it's because of the Batman mythology-The Watchmen heros always feel like the generic brands of consumer products used in movies. They're sort of like Gold and Silver age heros, but not quite. The story seems to drag-perhaps again it's just more literary than most comics, but give me Batman beating the crap out of a compromised Superman any day.

Posted by: MrCreosote at February 27, 2009 2:43 PM

Dare I say it? A great back and forth between two Master Debaters!

Posted by: Odnon at February 27, 2009 2:45 PM

i'll be seeing a free preview of this flick on monday.
this article has piqued my interest in the film when before there was none.

i'll also be seeing a free preview of "i love you man" followed by a Q&A with paul rudd and jason segell. i can't imagine the article that would do the same for that one.

Posted by: celery at February 27, 2009 2:52 PM

All the women, even the ones who do wield power, are portrayed as sex hungry manipulators

Really? I thought Dr. Manhattan's first wife was portrayed as a woman whose husband left her for a 16 year old, and used his phenomenal cosmic powers as a decent excuse. And Silk Spectre I was highly career driven, and her daughter was irritated by the fact that she'd become nothing more than Dr. Manhattan's tether in the eyes of the government.

I didn't agree with many of the choices of the women in Watchmen, but I hardly felt they were 2-D.

Posted by: twig at February 27, 2009 3:06 PM

I agree with Twig, I'm not a huge fan of any of the female characters in Watchmen, but I still feel like they had substance...especially the first Silk Spectre.

I just finished reading Watchmen and I loved it. Rorschach is by far the best Watchmen character and from that three minute clip that was released on the internet I have a feeling that Jackie Earle Haley will do him justice.

Posted by: citizen_cris at February 27, 2009 3:13 PM

Dustin :
Form what I remember, the entire pirate story is a Nietzsche allegory. I ended up taking a class on Nietzsche in my last yea of college to make up some lib arts credits, and the watchmen was required reading material.

The entire book is pretty heavily steeped in nihilism and the obvious references to lower man (Rorschach), evolved man (Ozymandias), and the UberMensch (Dr. Blue Guy).

Posted by: strtwise at February 27, 2009 3:16 PM

I've tried the graphic novel a couple of times with no success - and yet I'm practically salivating at the Watchmen trailers.

Nice back and forth Dustin and Twig.

Posted by: Cindy at February 27, 2009 3:29 PM

twig it was more an undercurrent through all of the characters than a simple "that's all they are" feeling. While each of the female characters was distinct in their own way, it was like looking at several distinct women as depicted by an individual who has a singular perception of women as manipulative and sexually aggressive. It's hard for me to explain it, as I don't have the book in front of me right now.

I could go on about how I feel the character of Laurie was bungled from her introduction or that the attempts to portray a man who killed a pregnant woman in cold blood and who was an attempted rapist as "morally ambiguous" was repugnant, but I don't want to derail a discussion on the literary merits of the book itself.

Posted by: Genny (also Rusty) at February 27, 2009 3:37 PM

The difference between Miller's Return of the Dark Knight series and Moore's Watchmen is that Dark Knight took comics to a new level that included some political satire, while Watchmen is a satirical send-up of the entire comic genre, with a little political and philosophical stuff thrown in because Moore is a smart guy.

One is a higher form of comic, and the other borders on literature.

That being said, I thought the illustration of Dark Knight was far superior to that in Watchmen, and it remains my favorite. The only illustration superior (that I've found) is Alex Ross' "Kingdom Come", which, however, has a story that is little better than hollow parody.

Posted by: Neodiogenes at February 27, 2009 3:41 PM

Dustin: I will pay you $100 to read "The Dark Knight Returns." No lie. Send me an e-mail at obryen at gmail dot com (the poingjam one is just a ruse for the spammers) and we'll work out the details of the transaction. You know you want it, you starving little honeybee.

Posted by: Lucas at February 27, 2009 3:54 PM

I've heard a lot of interesting commentary about Alan Moore writing female characters - most of it to do with "Lost Girls," but I guess I just didn't see the female characters as either more or specifically more damaged than the men. I don't put him in the same category as - say - Frank Miller, and that's even with liking Miller's Sin City era work.

that the attempts to portray a man who killed a pregnant woman in cold blood and who was an attempted rapist as "morally ambiguous" was repugnant,

Well, this is the same book where... oh damn, spoiler... ok, where the ending happens and it is deliberately noted that no one is called to account for it. So I'd say moral ambiguity is a pretty consistent theme of the book, even for those with blood on their hands.

Posted by: twig at February 27, 2009 3:55 PM

Hear Hear, Skitz. Let's talk Preacher. It walked a thin line between completely creeping me out and making me laugh out loud. And it's really completely irreverent, to anything. Sex, God, Kurt Cobain. Nothing is really treated with any respect.
Pretty Awesome
I think my favorite part of Watchmen is that at its heart, it's really about saving the world. About as typical a Super-hero story as can be. And it kinda happens.

Posted by: Optimus Rhyme at February 27, 2009 4:04 PM

I don't think Watchmen is a good entry to the world of comics so I can see why Dustin has problems with it. Watchmen is not a story that is satisfying or even completely clear after you have read it. You have to already know how to read comics before diving into it. The damn thing is so dense that 2 years after having read it I only remember bits and pieces of it. This in no way dampens my excitement for the movie.

Dustin, if you are willing to give comics another try go with (as others have suggested) The Dark Knight Returns or The Walking Dead series. The latter is a dark (so, SO dark) epic story of a band of strangers trying to survive in a world of zombies. Where The Walking Dead shines is by giving the story and characters room to breathe and grow, before unexpectedly tearing their lungs out and forcing you to feel every loss. The familiar zombie story cliches are there, but done in a wholly more enjoyable and realistic way than most.

Posted by: TylerDFC at February 27, 2009 4:26 PM

Can I make a request? Based on this back-and-forth review, I want two Watchmen movie reviews - a geeky one from somebody with the full comic book background, and a regular Joe one from somebody who hasn't read the graphic novel or followed the movie's hype. Although I don't know if that's possible, they have been hyping that thing all over....

Posted by: Anne (in Reno) at February 27, 2009 4:29 PM

Wow, Dustin, I'm genuinely impressed. For once, instead of just bashing something extremely popular that you didn't quite find as attractive, you turned it into a thought-provoking discussion instead.

Thanks for that.

Posted by: SJ at February 27, 2009 4:30 PM

P.S. can anyone recommend some good "starter" comics? I love Neil Gaiman but have never been able to get in to Sandman, and I have been told I should read that and Watchmen, which I am not sure I have the comic book background for.

Also, I hate Frank Miller. Should I give up now?

Posted by: Anne (in Reno) at February 27, 2009 4:34 PM

Really good debate. Don't feel bad, Dustin, if you didn't get it. I'm someone who dislikes The Wizard of Oz and finds Gone with the Wind boring and melodramatic. I'm told they're landmarks of movie history and all I can reply is "And they're also boring."

Guess I had to be there.

As for Watchmen, I think the problem is that it's structured so that you get to know Rorschach the best (so it's no surprise he became a fan-favorite) while you are barely aware of Ozymandias (who is vital to the overall theme of the story).

BTW, while some of the themes and devices in the story may feel outdated -- the Cold War, the Clock, nuclear obliteration -- I think the core of the story remains relevant in today's day. You know, the days of rendition and Patriot Acts and even now as politicians decide just how much debt they want to saddle the next two generations with because no one was minding the financial overlords.

If you don't mind who you give power over your life, then don't be surprised when they think they have the authority to decide it for you.

Posted by: Fredo at February 27, 2009 4:42 PM

Anne

Here is Pajiba's comic list post. That plus the comments should set you up with some good options for future research.

Posted by: twig at February 27, 2009 4:44 PM

@Anne: it depends on what you like. Find dark stuff appealing, try Mignola's Hellboy (it's really different from the movies). Want something subversive? Go with Bone. Feel like being sympathetic towards mice? Read Mauss.

Posted by: Fredo at February 27, 2009 4:45 PM

Thanks, guys, I forgot about that Pajiba comic post! I'll try Hellboy too Fredo, I enjoyed the first movie, and I'll keep an eye out for Bone. I forgot we read Maus for a class I took in college, I'll have to see if I can find it.

Posted by: Anne (in Reno) at February 27, 2009 4:48 PM

Gennie and/or Rusty,
I didn't like the female characters either, but partly that's because I thought they were hideously drawn, especially the first Silk Spectre. Did that bother you?

Posted by: CatBallou at February 27, 2009 5:13 PM

Hmmm...I'm a pretty well-informed geek, but only recently picked up Watchmen. And the first time I read it, I was all..."Really? I mean, seriously? That's it?"

Then I read it again, and started to realize all the little details i was missing, like the pervasiveness of one character's "business endeavors" (trying to avoid spoilers) to the little human touches to the way the pirate comic mirros that one characters journey while simultaneously commenting on what is going on in the individual frames.

I've reread it multiple times now, and honestly, it gets better with each reading. Although (and i will probably get bludgeoned by a fanboy for saying this)...but I am glad the ending got changed. The original ending is just...whooo. Odd? I can't see it translating well. Looking forward to the movie though.

Posted by: meh at February 27, 2009 5:17 PM

I think I have to agree with your guess, Twig: this book probably played better when the Reds were in the sky and the aliens were under your bed. Without the imminent threat of nuclear annihilation at the hands of Russia, a lot of the tension is probably missing if you don't put yourself into the right mindset.

For me, I finished my first read and immediately started a second. I love it. And I normally hate superhero stories. I'd rather watch a superhero movie than read their comic books, and even then I'm normally underwhelmed.

As for the classics, I'm not going into that again. Watchmen has an even greater obstacle to get over, for as many critics as there are against award winning/classic literature, there are (seemingly) exponentially more ready to decry the graphic novel as worthless and obscene. It's a losing battle right now, and this film probably won't help the cause.

Afterall, it is just a mindless superhero film, right? Wait...people don't know they need to turn their brains on when they go to see it? Ruh-roh.

Posted by: Robert at February 27, 2009 5:49 PM

I second a second Watchmen review, hell why not three or four?

Yes, four distinct Watchmen reviews at Pajiba. Git R done Pajiba reviewers!

They've done something remarkable in advertising this movie. Non-geek I wont see Iron Man or Dark Knight people WANT to watch the watchmen.

I'm still confused by the reason why they want to see Watchmen and refuse to see the others as I think the trailers were better for iron man and tdk.


Much shorter than Watchmen but I'd love to see the hollywood version of Superman Red Son, with the right team behind it.

Oh, back on topic Pajiba shall do 4 reviews of Watchmen.

Dustin & Twig since we've gotten this little book review, they shall also each do a separate movie review. Then we also need two females to review it as well.

That should give a better rounded review having four separate interpretations.

If it works out well Pajiba could start doing this on a regular basis.

Posted by: WhoWhatWhere at February 27, 2009 8:38 PM

Multiple perspectives on the review would be a very good idea, but four sounds a little like a clusterfuck. I'm a geek, but not really a comic geek (except for Japanese comics, a.k.a. manga), however, I read Watchmen, and I loved it.

I really want it to be a phenomenal movie, because after being fucked over more than any other great writer in the history of Hollywood book adaptations, Alan Moore deserves something special. Something tells me Zack Snyder is just geeky enough to get it right.

Posted by: George at February 27, 2009 9:02 PM

Twig, you made the perfect argument for one of my all time favourites, though I have sympathy for Dustins question about the pirate story. Even as a parallel for the blind pursuit of the mission ahead of the evidence (or whatever else it symbolised, I tend to glaze over) it seemed an unnecessary intrusion on the story.

I'm going into the film with lowered expectations, same as any other literary adaptation. There are just some places one medium can go where the other cannot

Posted by: Dave Shepherd at February 27, 2009 9:52 PM

Anne, you might want to start with something a little more independent, or less heavy. My suggestions:

1. Bone, as someone stated above
2. Ghost World
3. Anything by Jason ("I Killed Adolf Hitler" and "The Left Bank Gang" are favourites of mine)
4. Y: The Last Man
5. Fables

They're good bases and most importantly, fun.

Posted by: Marcela at February 27, 2009 9:57 PM

Bone is awesome and epic in the best possible way. And I love Fables with all my heart and didn't even mind the heavy-handed "Let me tell you about a country named Israel..." part. I don't like Preacher at all, but I guess I can maybe see why someone would enjoy it. Just like I don't like Bill Hicks but I guess if you swing that way, whatever.

But I will never, ever see why people like Y: The Last Man. The story is good, it's something that you want to investigate, and the only reason I kept reading after the first volume was because I was genuinely interested in finding the answers, but I will be damned if I wanted to put up with the ridiculous dialogue. Holy fuck, it's like TMZ wrote their words.

I literally post a comment to rebut anyone who says they like it just because I want my voice registered as being in the "Fuck no!" column for that piece of shit.

Y: The Last Man turned me into a douchebag internet poster. That's how much I hate it.

Posted by: JakesAlterEgo at February 28, 2009 12:05 AM

TylerDFC wrote:
Dustin, if you are willing to give comics another try go with (as others have suggested) The Dark Knight Returns or The Walking Dead series.

If Dustin prefers more realistic character drama to fantasy/sci-fi type stuff I think it'd be better to forego superhero/zombie comics (especially Frank Miller, who even at his best offers very shallow characterizations) and read more "indie" comics like Dan Clowes' "Ice Haven" or Charles Burns' "Black Hole" or Chester Brown's "Louis Riel" or Gilbert Hernandez's "Heartbreak Soup" (and other books in the Love & Rockets series).

Posted by: Jesse M. at February 28, 2009 11:18 AM

I also cast my vote (not that anyone asked) for reviews from different perspectives, a geek and a non-geek. I often wonder what I would have thought of a film (Atonement comes to mine) if I hadn't read the book beforehand, especially one, like Atonement and I think like Watchmen will be, that hews pretty closely to the original storyline. As someone who had never heard of Watchmen until the hype began, and doesn't really get it for all the reasons stated by Dustin above, I'm really curious about how people who were really into comics when this came out will react, versus someone like me who does not have this context.

This also turned into a pretty douchey post, talking about context and shit. Does Watchmen turn people into pretentious blowhards? Maybe I already was. Existential crisis!

Posted by: Cara at February 28, 2009 11:24 AM

If you google annotated Watchmen, you get a commentary, though it does get a bit annoying when they point out every single instance of the blood spattered smiley (that is the point of annotations, to point everything out, but the smiley is there a lot). And I thought compared to Sandman, there was a lot less going on that needed to be pointed out in the annotations. Or perhaps the annotations were not done by a comics geek.
Re role of women, I did think it was a bit much when the Silk Spectre II went on about how her costume was ridiculous and little better than lingerie, but then wore it to get the Nite Owl turned on and then kept wearing it. I guess she was too busy plotting jail breaks to make a new one and heaven forbid that a costumed hero would wear a tracksuit.

Posted by: ChrisD at February 28, 2009 1:43 PM

ChrisD, in defense of the costume contradiction, her entire existence as a costumed hero was defined by other people. She only goes back into the costumed heroics because the second Nite Owl lets her into that part of his life eight years after their retirement. She's portrayed as a follower in her heroics and does a lot of complaining without a whole lot changing to back up her attitude. Anyone can seemingly convince her of anything, so it makes sense to me that she wouldn't consider another costume because no one ever told her how to change it.

Posted by: Robert at February 28, 2009 3:36 PM

Watchmen definitely made it more okay to focus on a hero's humanity and flaws in comics. A lot of the time all we got was one-dimensional good guys.

Posted by: Trollin' at February 28, 2009 5:07 PM

I really hope they don't turn Nite Owl II into a 'comedic' character. I thought that plot, about a good person who's aged and simply out of his depth in all of the craziness his desire to help others got him into, was incredibly powerful. It would ruin the beautiful tragedy, not to mention the relatability, of the character if he were turned into Rorschach's bufoonish sidekick. Of course, if the humor primarily comes from biting remarks about the other characters rather than slapstick jokes about his age or weight, then it might be good. I'm not sure which of the two to expect, if either. I actually think most of the humor in the movie should come from Rorschach or (naturally) The Comedian, and it should be a lot like the Joker's humor in TDK. That would make for an entertaining movie.

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Posted by: oliver at March 1, 2009 6:19 PM

Interesting. I haven't been to the site in a few days, so I didn't know that this post up before having read WATCHMEN, which I did today.

First time comic reader, so, yep.

I appreciated it, even if I wasn't thrilled by it. It happens. I can list the number of people share my enjoyment of ONE HUNDRED YEARS OF SOLITUDE on one hand. The first Silk had a fright wig made of carpenter's glue and effluvia, I'm convinced of that. I could see where Dr. Long's wife was coming from, but she was a bit much. He's a psychiatrist, he has to psychi-a-trate? Laurie and Drieberg, really?

Needless to say, I'm not glowing at the idea of that Ackerman chick (the one who acts badly in dumb movies) taking up space in it. Maybe I'm biased because the only time I've heard her speak, it just about how pretty she is. Guess I'm too ugly to care.

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Posted by: evan at March 2, 2009 2:32 AM

I'm a relative newbie to the graphic novel, and my recent reading of Watchmen convinced me that it is a genre I might enjoy more of. I found the medium to be uniquely adept at fleshing out characters and conflicts, although I too, was a bit dismayed over the portrayal of some of the females. Actually, no- not some of the females, just Laurie, really. Not that she was horrible or disproportionately shallow, but there was unfulfilled potential in developing her in a more interesting way.

Silk Spectre I/Sally Jupiter shows the author's ability to create a female character with true emotional and moral complexity, wisdom into life's imperfection, and a truly compelling backstory (a women breaking into the man's world of superheroism in the macho 50s, who uses her sexuality to her advantage, until she is victimized- after which she loses her confidence and courage, and makes choices based upon her own need for feeling safe and for life to be less ugly.) She is emotionally conflicted and interesting in a real way, albiet with the worst hair ever drawn.
Laurie, on the other hand, comes across as whiny, manipulative, and sort of vapid, which is understandable, given her own lot in life (as basically Dr. Manhattan's concubine), and her history as the reluctant daughter of Silk Spectre, but her weak personality is inadequate to support her role as a primary character. She never becomes the hero in her own right, she remains in the shadow of the male heroes the whole time (I was never convinced that she had real feelings for Dan, but found him a safe port in a storm) and always waits for things to be explained to her. Either she should have been more peripheral, making room for better development of the other characters (The Silouette, Captain Metropolis, Mothman, even Ozymandias) or she should have been allowed more development of her own, since she was the most apt to change of any of them.
Wow- I guess the book affected me more than I realized...
Sorry to rant.

Posted by: architeuthis at March 3, 2009 11:24 AM

architeuthis, I just finished it and I completely agree about Laurie. I would way rather have had more development of Ozymandias in particular, and just let her be the one-note minor character she is written as. Her mom is way more interesting than she is, and I kept wishing Dan wouldn't be such a wimp while she kept disappearing with Dr. M.

Posted by: Anne (in Reno) at March 3, 2009 2:31 PM

To the last two comments: I agree entirely.

Posted by: Jo 'Mama' Besser at March 3, 2009 11:02 PM

Anne- TOTALLY! I think that's why I don't buy her being smitten with him.
She's been told what to do her whole life, and she seems to prefer it to making decisions on her own. She can pout all she wants when Jon does things his way, but I get the sense that walking out was just a way to try to get his attention.
She'd become bored with Dan's passive adoration right quick.

Posted by: architeuthis at March 4, 2009 1:52 PM





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